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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: one_less who wrote (145221)	9/9/2004 3:06:15 PM
From: cnyndwllr	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Jewell, you can call all the religions you want, "tolerant," and you can disagree on and on with my statement that "some religions are not tolerant at all." You may even be able to point to some scripture that will support your assertion. So let me modify my statement. I'll now say that "there are many majorities in many nations that claim to be religious, consider themselves devout, are willing to die or be killed for their religious beliefs AND WHICH ARE NOT TOLERANT AT ALL." Can you at least agree with that? Does that offend your firmly held beliefs on the greatness of religion and the bad motives of those who might claim that it can be a force for tyranny? If not, then please explain to me the Taleban, those Christians who burned witches in Salem, those Christians and Muslims who persecuted Jews throughout the ages, those Muslims who persecuted Christians, etc., etc. Remember that it's bad enough when someone arrogantly believes they "know what's best for us," but it's really bad when they believe that they are on a mission from God to "set the world straight." (Sorry if I offended George W..)

To: one_less who wrote (145221)	9/9/2004 3:59:46 PM
From: cnyndwllr	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 281500

Jewell, re: Even so, the seeds which eventually brought us together as a people tolerant of one another's beliefs were a commitment to liberty and justice for all. These seeds could sprout and grow now in Iraq as well but would need support from those willing to be gardeners of freedom. Good point but I have a couple of questions. Are those who plant the seeds of "liberty and justice for all" the same people who take Iraqis from their homes and hold them without trial, or sometimes even notice to their families of where they're being held and for indefinite periods of time and then fail in oversight or intentionally abuse them? Are these the same people who feel it's "justified" to shoot missiles or drop bombs into populated areas in order to try to kill a "terrorist," all the while accepting the irrefutable fact that by doing so they will certainly also kill the innocent sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, family members and friends who happened to be nearby? Are these the same people who tell the Iraqi people that they have the "freedom to chose a form of government that is acceptable to (drumroooolllll) us? Tell me again how we're "gardeners of freedom," spreading the "seeds of liberty and justice," cause sometimes I forget. And don't forget my post questioning the "common wisdom" that "everyone wants freedom" and that "democracy will destroy terrorism." We should face the fact that we're not wise enough, not just enough and not godlike enough to take the awesome responsibility of setting the world right through the use of deadly force. Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe if the situation were reversed, then the mirror-image actions of Iraqis conducting themselves here would make YOU want to emulate their wonderful form of government? Think about that. You live in a situation where any moment you could be taken from your home by people who didn't even speak your language. Their gunships, tanks and soldiers were armed and ready to strike out at the least sign of danger. Your son had been killed a week ago as a bystander in a missile attack. Your spouse had been taken off somewhere and you hadn't heard from them. They said they were there to help you. Liberty and freedom were calling to you. Democracy was within your grasp. Of course you'd be willing to fight and die for it; or would you? Ever? The tooth fairy isn't real, Santa Clause doesn't deliver, and the Iraqis see what we do, not what we tell them or what we intend.