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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Bilow who wrote (146214)9/23/2004 11:26:21 AM
From: Sam  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
Well, there is no way to "prove" one way or the other whether or not Bush has learned the "lessons" you hope he has learned and some of us--including me--think he/his group haven't learned much of anything. We still have people like Kagan talking about spreading democracy (this time in Russia, of all places--see George Will's column on this here: msnbc.msn.com -- for once I agree wholeheartedly with Will), and we still have same of "freedom" rhetoric. But you're right--it may simply be an election ploy for him to repeat ad nauseum how much he believes in "freedom" and the spread of democracy. But smarter people than him have been trapped in their rhetoric before, and his followers are certainly for the most part hard core believers in this rhetoric.

Your list of "actions" don't really prove anything either:
"He ended sanctions against Libya." Why not, a nice propaganda coup for his admin, spinning Libya as a "success" story cowed by his firm resolution; if anything the spin they put on this will encourage them to do more military action.

"He failed to push for sanctions against Iran." --Well, why would he, he knew for one thing that his word in the international community is pretty worthless except insofar as he might use force, and no one would go for it right now--he doesn't want another diplomatic failure demonstrating that while he calls for people to do things, not too many people will follow.

"He failed to punish North Korea." How would he "punish" them? The nut in charge over there has demonstrated that he doesn't care about starving 25% of his people. And we're too tied down in Iraq to do much militarily. Besides he doesn't want to look completely like a war monger. He wants to look resolute and like someone who "only" does military actions when "forced" to.

"He didn't increase the size of the US military." Politically impossible right now. His people have said over and over again that they have enough troops. They aren't going back on that before an election. Maybe afterwards.

"He gave up on conquering Falloujah. He didn't have Sadr arrested at all costs." On both of these, he didn't want to have to kill too many more civilians, especially in a massive battle. 10 or 20 or even 50 Iraqi civilian deaths is "acceptable," especially if there aren't too many pictures and no one knows their names. If there is a wholesale batter, with hundreds or even thousands of deaths that might have resulted from an attack on Fallujah, that would be unacceptable to too many people.

All that said, I can't prove you're engaging in wishful thinking by believing that Bush will pull out after the election. I still think, though, that he will be trapped by his rhetoric and his fervent followers into remaining stuck there. But of course, personally, I hope we don't find that out, I hope we find out what a Kerry admin will do.

We'll all have to just wait and see who wins the election.



To: Bilow who wrote (146214)9/23/2004 1:07:32 PM
From: Sam  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
Carl,
I just listened to Bush's press conference with Allawi. Allawi says that there are problems in just 3 Iraqi provinces. And that foreign terrorists are causing most of the problems, not Iraqis. The press is just dramatizing and magnifying the problems that these foreigners and a small number of Iraqis are causing right now.

I heard nothing to indicate that Bush will back off in any way after the election. Sure there are bumps, it is difficult to move from a dictatorship to freedom, but it will happen, we will succeed, we aren't leaving just because of a few difficulties.

Perhaps this is just a massive deception, just election year shadowplay.

We'll have to wait and see.

Sam



To: Bilow who wrote (146214)9/23/2004 2:25:07 PM
From: cnyndwllr  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
Hello Carl. You write: "Since the Iraq invasion, Bush has not made a single "action" indicating that he failed to learn his lesson. Quite the contrary. He ended sanctions against Libya. He failed to push for sanctions against Iran. He failed to punish North Korea. He didn't increase the size of the US military. He gave up on conquering Falloujah. He didn't have Sadr arrested at all costs.

I disagree. I think the examples you use for "learning his lesson" in Iraq, are largely limitations that he knew he had before invading. Before we discuss this, however, why don't we define the "lesson" he needed to learn.

I have always maintained that Bush fails to understand the limits of American military power. When we look at that issue, however, we must also put it in context or it loses focus. We have to ask; the limits of "American military power to do what," and "the limits of American military power against what kind of resistance?"

The utter foolishness of Bush/Cheney with regard to the use of our forces in Iraq is what brings many of us to the conclusion that he fails to understand the limits of such power. In that context we are clearly talking about learning that unless a nation is willing to virtually brutalize the entire populaton, conventional military force employed in a foreign nation cannot effectively suppress the impassioned resistance of even a strong minority of people who are willing to fight and die to oppose foreign control. Unless the goal of such occupation is clear, worthy and embraced by the people of the occupying nation, the mission will fail.

In that context, therefor, you now say that he has learned his lesson and you offer the rhetorical question and conclusion; "[t]hen how come he hasn't invaded Iran or North Korea already? If your analysis of Bush were correct, we'd have invaded all these countries already," as support.

I suspect, however, from reading the examples that you offer to support your "learning" allegation, that you confuse Bush's learning the limits of American military power with Bush's understanding the political factors which impede a president's use of such power. In that sense Bush/Cheney could fully believe that we COULD do things with the military force we possess and yet recognize that the POWER to call that force into play was limited because the powers of war are subject to constitutional and political limitations. They are, of course, additionally subject to getting reelected every four years and guess what-election coming in a few weeks.

So let's look at the practical, political and constitutional limitations and ask whether the Bush/Cheney brain trust could reasonably expect to satisfy a desire to invade another country. First, the practical.

Our military manpower is stretched so thinly because of Iraq that we are extending the service of our troops beyond the dates many of them were scheduled to leave the service. We are calling forces out of Europe and South Korea simply because we have to fill our troop needs in Iraq. We are also calling back specialty personnel who had completed their active duty service obligations and extending the tours of the National Guard troops serving in Iraq. And it's not getting better in Iraq. Now, in the Ghostebusters sense, "Who you gonna call?"

What about the political and constitutional limitations? The invasion of another country takes the cooperation of Congress and that won't occur without the support of the American people. At this time the public is fed up with the cost of the Iraqi war in terms of lives and treasure. In order to expand on the Bush policy, he'll need their support in order to institute a draft, secure the funding and get the military to play along.

With an election on the way do you think they want to institute a draft? If they did do you really think the congress would go along? The climate for the aggressive use of American military force is bad. But remember that it could change in an instant if we had a Russian school-like terrorist attack here at home.

Still, you allege that Bush's failure to increase the size of the military, maintain sanctions on Libya, punish N. Korea or start the sanction process against Iran are due to his learing the "lesson." You fail to acknowledge that there are many more likely explanations for each of those actions. They are all too obvious but I will list a few.

Libya? It's true that he lifted sanctions. Of course he had no basis for invading and occupying Libya, especially after Libya gave up a nuclear program that was going nowhere and had therefor made itself a "good example."

Failing to push for sanctions against Iran? What does that tell us? First, he would need world support to secure such sanctions and the world had earlier become unhappy with the sanctions against Iraq. Second, the world has figured out what Bush means when he asks them to make resolutions and start on the sanctions path. They learned that by watching him spin their actions against Iraq into a "sanction" for war. Why would Bush push for something that would likely fail and embarrass him?

Punish North Korea? Not even Bush is stupid enough to act against N. Korea when there's nothing there that we want, the resistance will likely cause costly losses, and its neighbor China is the real long term threat.

So why look for the zebra when you find a few hoofprints on American soil? It's probably a horse unless you can rule a horse out. That leaves us with your other "examples" offerred to proving "quite to the contrary;" i.e. the "giving up" on conquering Falloujah, and the not having "Sadr arrested at all costs."

These examples could arguably reveal a glimmer of Bush learning the "lesson" of the limits of American military power or they may only show that he was not willing to pay major political costs here at home. The "conquering" of Falloujah would have basically required bombing the city and all those within it to rubble, or a long and bloody use of American forces against an Alamo-like group of defenders. In either event he would be out of office on January 20th.

The "having Sadr arrested at all costs" would have likely guaranteed the demise of the puppet government we installed and would have likely derailed elections and increased the level of violence from the religious folks who want the infidels out. These may be costs that he was willing to pay, but they might also have fatally wounded his reelection hopes.

Have you got any more compelling arguments that would support your allegation that he learned his lesson? If not then I'll stick with my "laughable..challenge [to] you about logic."

As far as the "psychological drivel;" you're right. It's just that I have a hard time figuring out why such people as Pat Robertson will get up on national television and lambast the Cheney/Bush foreign policy with passion. He was much stronger in his anger at the "neocon" approach than most democrats and yet he, like you, said that he would vote for Bush. In order to justify that seeming leap of logic, he had to adopt the "no Kerry" slogans put forth by the RNC.

The best argument you can come up with for voting for Bush is that Kerry's Iraq position is similar to Bush's. That's weak. Even if Kerry had the same initial position on Iraq, at least he hasn't yet revealed the Bush team's total inability to alter course or act competently.

It's not difficult to fathom why they're the "gang that couldn't shoot straight." I've seen too many reports of critical activities in Iraq being placed in the hands of young Republicans whose only qualification is that they passed the "loyalty oath" test. I've seen too many examples of blind ideology resisting reality in the policy setting and implementation aspects of the Iraqi occupation. I've seen too many examples of narrow perspectives blocking out the big picture from Bush/Cheney and their cabinet. I've seen too many instance of Powell being shunted aside when he was clearly trying to de-radicalize the neocons.

Perhaps the most damning indictment of all, however, is the one you hung on Bush when you said that Bush wouldn't have substantially changed course because, "t would have been politically impossible for Bush to have done anything much different from what he's done in Iraq since the invasion.

Hey, call me picky but when someone pursues a failed policy that's carried on the sacrifice of the lives, health and well-being of our troops for political reasons, then I'm NOT going to vote for that man. He's not the man his father was, he's not a man who'll make a "Profiles In Courage" chapter in anyone's book and he's not worth the lives of one more American soldier.

So I think I'll have to stick with my initial assessment that, "like a gambler in so deeply he feels he can't afford to quit he'll simply try to find ways to keep going while he waits for something "good" to change the landscape."

And I'll not vote for a man who, when he is finally forced to leave, will "have driven a wedge into our country that will take years or decades to undo, he'll have set the cause of terrorism forward tremendously and he'll have created a more dangerous, less trusting and more divided civilized world."

And, like Pat Robertson, if the political party labels were reversed on Kerry and Bush and everything else remained the same, I doubt if you'd be voting for Bush either. Ed



To: Bilow who wrote (146214)10/23/2004 12:54:35 AM
From: cnyndwllr  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
Hi Carl, when I read this post from the board, I remembered your point. I.e. "When the American public wants the troops back from Iraq, Bush will find a transparent excuse for bringing them home just like he found a transparent excuse for sending them over there. I'd rather have that sort of predictability than to put Kerry in there."

Are you still thinking about it. you've been quiet for a while and I'm sure many miss hearing from you. Ed

From the American Conservative Magazine.

amconmag.com

"Kerry’s the One

By Scott McConnell

There is little in John Kerry’s persona or platform that appeals to conservatives. The flip-flopper charge—the centerpiece of the Republican campaign against Kerry—seems overdone, as Kerry’s contrasting votes are the sort of baggage any senator of long service is likely to pick up. (Bob Dole could tell you all about it.) But Kerry is plainly a conventional liberal and no candidate for a future edition of Profiles in Courage. In my view, he will always deserve censure for his vote in favor of the Iraq War in 2002.

But this election is not about John Kerry. If he were to win, his dearth of charisma would likely ensure him a single term. He would face challenges from within his own party and a thwarting of his most expensive initiatives by a Republican Congress. Much of his presidency would be absorbed by trying to clean up the mess left to him in Iraq. He would be constrained by the swollen deficits and a ripe target for the next Republican nominee.

It is, instead, an election about the presidency of George W. Bush. To the surprise of virtually everyone, Bush has turned into an important president, and in many ways the most radical America has had since the 19th century. Because he is the leader of America’s conservative party, he has become the Left’s perfect foil—its dream candidate. The libertarian writer Lew Rockwell has mischievously noted parallels between Bush and Russia’s last tsar, Nicholas II: both gained office as a result of family connections, both initiated an unnecessary war that shattered their countries’ budgets. Lenin needed the calamitous reign of Nicholas II to create an opening for the Bolsheviks.

Bush has behaved like a caricature of what a right-wing president is supposed to be, and his continuation in office will discredit any sort of conservatism for generations. The launching of an invasion against a country that posed no threat to the U.S., the doling out of war profits and concessions to politically favored corporations, the financing of the war by ballooning the deficit to be passed on to the nation’s children, the ceaseless drive to cut taxes for those outside the middle class and working poor: it is as if Bush sought to resurrect every false 1960s-era left-wing cliché about predatory imperialism and turn it into administration policy. Add to this his nation-breaking immigration proposal—Bush has laid out a mad scheme to import immigrants to fill any job where the wage is so low that an American can’t be found to do it—and you have a presidency that combines imperialist Right and open-borders Left in a uniquely noxious cocktail.

During the campaign, few have paid attention to how much the Bush presidency has degraded the image of the United States in the world. Of course there has always been “anti-Americanism.” After the Second World War many European intellectuals argued for a “Third Way” between American-style capitalism and Soviet communism, and a generation later Europe’s radicals embraced every ragged “anti-imperialist” cause that came along. In South America, defiance of “the Yanqui” always draws a crowd. But Bush has somehow managed to take all these sentiments and turbo-charge them. In Europe and indeed all over the world, he has made the United States despised by people who used to be its friends, by businessmen and the middle classes, by moderate and sensible liberals. Never before have democratic foreign governments needed to demonstrate disdain for Washington to their own electorates in order to survive in office. The poll numbers are shocking. In countries like Norway, Germany, France, and Spain, Bush is liked by about seven percent of the populace. In Egypt, recipient of huge piles of American aid in the past two decades, some 98 percent have an unfavorable view of the United States. It’s the same throughout the Middle East.

Bush has accomplished this by giving the U.S. a novel foreign-policy doctrine under which it arrogates to itself the right to invade any country it wants if it feels threatened. It is an American version of the Brezhnev Doctrine, but the latter was at least confined to Eastern Europe. If the analogy seems extreme, what is an appropriate comparison when a country manufactures falsehoods about a foreign government, disseminates them widely, and invades the country on the basis of those falsehoods? It is not an action that any American president has ever taken before. It is not something that “good” countries do. It is the main reason that people all over the world who used to consider the United States a reliable and necessary bulwark of world stability now see us as a menace to their own peace and security.

These sentiments mean that as long as Bush is president, we have no real allies in the world, no friends to help us dig out from the Iraq quagmire. More tragically, they mean that if terrorists succeed in striking at the United States in another 9/11-type attack, many in the world will not only think of the American victims but also of the thousands and thousands of Iraqi civilians killed and maimed by American armed forces. The hatred Bush has generated has helped immeasurably those trying to recruit anti-American terrorists—indeed his policies are the gift to terrorism that keeps on giving, as the sons and brothers of slain Iraqis think how they may eventually take their own revenge. Only the seriously deluded could fail to see that a policy so central to America’s survival as a free country as getting hold of loose nuclear materials and controlling nuclear proliferation requires the willingness of foreign countries to provide full, 100 percent co-operation. Making yourself into the world’s most hated country is not an obvious way to secure that help.

I’ve heard people who have known George W. Bush for decades and served prominently in his father’s administration say that he could not possibly have conceived of the doctrine of pre-emptive war by himself, that he was essentially taken for a ride by people with a pre-existing agenda to overturn Saddam Hussein. Bush’s public performances plainly show him to be a man who has never read or thought much about foreign policy. So the inevitable questions are: who makes the key foreign-policy decisions in the Bush presidency, who controls the information flow to the president, how are various options are presented?

The record, from published administration memoirs and in-depth reporting, is one of an administration with a very small group of six or eight real decision-makers, who were set on war from the beginning and who took great pains to shut out arguments from professionals in the CIA and State Department and the U.S. armed forces that contradicted their rosy scenarios about easy victory. Much has been written about the neoconservative hand guiding the Bush presidency—and it is peculiar that one who was fired from the National Security Council in the Reagan administration for suspicion of passing classified material to the Israeli embassy and another who has written position papers for an Israeli Likud Party leader have become key players in the making of American foreign policy.

But neoconservatism now encompasses much more than Israel-obsessed intellectuals and policy insiders. The Bush foreign policy also surfs on deep currents within the Christian Right, some of which see unqualified support of Israel as part of a godly plan to bring about Armageddon and the future kingdom of Christ. These two strands of Jewish and Christian extremism build on one another in the Bush presidency—and President Bush has given not the slightest indication he would restrain either in a second term. With Colin Powell’s departure from the State Department looming, Bush is more than ever the “neoconian candidate.” The only way Americans will have a presidency in which neoconservatives and the Christian Armageddon set are not holding the reins of power is if Kerry is elected.

If Kerry wins, this magazine will be in opposition from Inauguration Day forward. But the most important battles will take place within the Republican Party and the conservative movement. A Bush defeat will ignite a huge soul-searching within the rank-and-file of Republicandom: a quest to find out how and where the Bush presidency went wrong. And it is then that more traditional conservatives will have an audience to argue for a conservatism informed by the lessons of history, based in prudence and a sense of continuity with the American past—and to make that case without a powerful White House pulling in the opposite direction.

George W. Bush has come to embody a politics that is antithetical to almost any kind of thoughtful conservatism. His international policies have been based on the hopelessly naïve belief that foreign peoples are eager to be liberated by American armies—a notion more grounded in Leon Trotsky’s concept of global revolution than any sort of conservative statecraft. His immigration policies—temporarily put on hold while he runs for re-election—are just as extreme. A re-elected President Bush would be committed to bringing in millions of low-wage immigrants to do jobs Americans “won’t do.” This election is all about George W. Bush, and those issues are enough to render him unworthy of any conservative support.

November 8, 2004 issue"