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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Michael Watkins who wrote (147574)10/11/2004 10:42:55 AM
From: Bruce L  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE MR SPOCK, THAT YOU ARE RIGHT AND I AM WRONG, AND THAT'S THE "STRAIGHT LINE" CALCULATION?

You haven't shown any indication that you ever understood Keith Feral's point.

And You didn't answer MY question.

Maybe another way of putting the same question: Do you see "them facts" as all being linear?

And another: Is it (IRAQ) all a simple "yes"/"no" proposition: MICHAEL WATKINS RIGHT; BRUCE WRONG!

Bruce



To: Michael Watkins who wrote (147574)10/11/2004 11:45:25 AM
From: carranza2  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
When the CIA tells me that Saddam was toothless

Oh.

Where did you get that pearl?

The best history I've read of the run-up to the war is Carl Woodward's.

He has several folks quoting Tenet at meetings with W that the WMD issue was "a slam dunk." Tenet is said to have accompanied his statements with the appropriately assertive physical gestures.

Did you read Woodward's book or have you conveniently forgotten that aspect of it?

Or are you so one-sided you fail to consider a contrary view?

I'll grant you that there are other versions which support what you say, but not on WMD.

Given these uncertainties, why are you so certain? Got a pipeline to The Truth?



To: Michael Watkins who wrote (147574)10/11/2004 3:35:44 PM
From: Neocon  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
L'Express du 11/12/2003
MICHAEL IGNATIEFF
"Iraq is the strategic failure of Europe"
propos recueillis par Jean-Michel Demetz

The invasion of Iraq, was it justified? Can one rebuild a stable state on the ashes of the dictatorship of Saddam Hussein?

While the victors find nowhere traces of WMDs and American opinion is becoming more doubtful, the scholar MICHAEL IGNATIEFF, professor at Harvard, one of the theoreticians of the policy of the rights of man and of the reconstruction of the state (nation building) in zones ravaged by war, responds affirmatively. He explains why he feels that neither France nor Europe grasped the significance of what was at stake in the Iraq affair.

MICHAEL IGNATIEFF is a liberal, which is to say, in the accepted usage in North America, a man of the Left. This Canadian, son of an aristocratic Russian emigre who became a diplomat in Ottowa, grandson of a minister of the Tsar, demonstrated against the Vietnam War in the 60s.

Today, this scholar, opposing George W. Bush generally, defends the American intervention in Iraq. In the name of human rights. After passing through Cambridge and the School of Advanced Studies in the Social Sciences in Paris, as well as Oxford, he teaches at the Kennedy School of Government, at Harvard University, where he directs the Carr Center for Human Rights Policy. His sojourns in the Balkans and in Afghanistan have nourished his written works and his courses. His last book appearing in France is Kabul- Sarajevo: the new frontiers of the empire.

Q.Why would an intellectual of the Left like you support the war in Iraq? And, seven months after, do you regret it?

A.I supported this intervention in the name of human rights. The question, in my eyes, was to know where the long term interests of more than 26 million Iraqis lay. But, also considering the power demonstrated, the debate has become a referendum on American power instead of what is best for the Iraqi people. Although the last months have been difficult, I clearly prefer to see the Americans in Baghdad rather than Saddam Hussein.

[answer continued]I went to Iraq, to Kurdistan, in 1993, and what I saw of the campaign of terror organized by the regime influenced my judgment. Yes, I would have prefered an intervention with the support of the UN, at last acting; yes, I would have prefered a provisional administration under the UN in Baghdad. But that wasn't possible. In part, because of France. The foreign policy of France troubles me.

Q.Why?

A.The French can defend their historic interests in the Middle East. Chirac has a personal history in the region (the nuclear reactor sold to Saddam, the oil....) So be it. But the problem is that the French, in November of 2002, engaged to support resolution 1441 of the UN in a multi- lateral framework, and, in January 2003, decided no longer to do so.

[answer continued] When I hear Dominique de Villepin sermonize to Colin Powell on the horrors of war---- in passing, what irony! Powell is a veteran of Vietnam, while Villepin has never fought--- then I understood that France was in the wrong. Unhappily, the position of the French had a ricochet effect: each rallied to a project to stop American power.

[answer continued] And everybody forgot the thirteen years of violations by Iraq of UN resolutions. Multilateral action on resolution 1441 became impossible. Understand me well In the world after the Cold War, the middling powers have more freedom of action in order to have an independent foreign policy, and that is their right.

[answer continued] Today, most multilateral initiatives- the International Court of Justice, the treaty on the interdiction of personnel mines, etc.- come from outside the United States, and that is great. The error of France isn't to seek to have an independent policy; its error is to pretend to defend the multilateral framework and yet not take action.

This is what made Americans angry, to see France refuse to dispatch a single policeman to the region to put pressure on Iraq and, at the same time, pose as a schoolmarm. It is necessary to link words and deeds. Or keep quiet. But on the crucial question of the application of the UN resolutions, if one is not ready to send troops, one can't pretend to be in the discussion. It is a question of credibility.........

lexpress.fr



To: Michael Watkins who wrote (147574)10/11/2004 3:40:28 PM
From: Neocon  Respond to of 281500
 
The Lesser Evil, by Mario VARGAS LLOSA

My opposition to the military intervention of the United States and Great Britain in Iraq, expressed without ambiguity on the 16th of February, has become very nuanced, not to say corrected, after my trip--- Le Monde published, from the 3rd to the 9th of August, an account of the trip of VARGAS LLOSA in Iraq.

It was precisely one of two reasons for my sojourn down there: to verify on the groung the Iraqi point of view, if the arguments advanced by the French minister of foreign affairs condemning the military intervention were mainly convincing while I was reasoning in the abstract on the subject, far from the theater of events, in Europe.

I continue to believe that it was a very grave mistake on the part of the governments of the coalition to brandish, as a justification for military action, the existence of WMDs in the hands of Saddam Hussein, and ties between Al Qaida and the authors of the massacre of September 11th, given the absence of definitive proof, so that they appear, in the actual state of things, rather like pretexts rather than conclusive reasons.

For the destruction of the dictatorship of Saddam Hussein, one of the cruelest, most corrupt, and demented in modern history, was in itself reason enough to justify the intervention. As would have been justified a preventive action by the democratic countries against Hitler and his regime before Nazism precipitated the world into the apocalypse of the Second World War.

"Saddam Hussein should fall, but by the internal actions of the Iraqis themselves", said French President Chirac, showing by such a phrase a profound misunderstanding of the regime of Saddam Hussein. As had Hitler and Stalin, his models, the Iraqi dictator had dispossessed the Iraqi people of sovereignty, and, by the use of vertiginous terror, colonized their spirits until annihilating, in the short or long term, any realistic prospect of an effective uprising against the regime opening the way to a process of democratization.

Criticizable, without doubt, for its unilateral character, and lacking the support of the United Nations, nevertheless the military intervention of the coalition opened, for the first time in the history of Iraq, the possibility of breaking the vicious circle of authoritarianism and totalitariansim in which it had slumbered since Great Britian accorded it it's independence.

Despite all the suffering brought about in the wake of the military intervention, it still is small if one compares it to what they endured due to the policy of genocide, impoverishment, and systematic repression of the Ba'athist regime.

Without doubt, it is dangerous to establish as a norm the right of democratic nations to act militarily against dictatorships to facilitate the process of democratization, for in certain cases the same principle could be used as a smoke screen for colonial adventures.

This conduct can only be legitimate in exceptional cases, when, by its extreme nature, its excessive criminality, its genocide, a dictatorship seals off the ways of liberty which could have permitted the people peaceful resistance, or when it becomes, by its belligerent initiatives against its neighbors and its attack on the rights of man, a serious danger for world peace.

The unanimous testimony of Iraqis that I was able to receive in my short stay in Iraq has convinced me that the regime of Saddam Hussein presented quite exactly this exceptional character.

It is certain that an intervention of this nature could have been legitimated by the United Nations. But the opposition of France, which threatened to use its veto in the Security Council, closed all the doors to that possibility.

The war in Iraq went beyoond the frontiers of ancient Mesopotamia. It served to bring to light, and aggravate, the differences between the United States and its veteran allies, like France and Germany, and to stir up hatred against the United States, legitimating a new anti- Americanism under the color of pacifism and anticolonialism, where stand side by side fascist and communist nostalgics with nationalists, social democrats, socialists, and antiglobaliazation movements.

By a strange twist of fate, the war in Iraq permits, in Europe and America, Saddam Hussein to appear as a David of the Third World resisting the colonialist and oil man Goliath- Bush, and to demonize the United States as the primary source of the first international crisis to arise in the world since September 11, 2001.

It is deplorable to see the frivolity, matching a growing nationalism, posted by the French government in this affair, contributing to the denaturalization of historical reality, of which one of the most serious effects is the division in the European Union, which threatens to slow, indeed, to paralyze indefinitely the process of European integration.

lemonde.fr@2-3230,36-344495,0.html