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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Neocon who wrote (147813)	10/14/2004 10:10:58 AM
From: jttmab	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

..and almost certainly an attempt to stir up the presumed homophobes among conservatives against the ticket. Thanks for confirming that homophobes are attracted to the Republican Party. Bush kicked ass. Having missed the particular debate I can't say. I have to refer to the first headline I saw this am in the Washington Post; a paper that you and I agree is one of the best in the country. Round 3: Bush Grins, Spins but Doesn't Win By Tom Shales Thursday, October 14, 2004; Page C01 An essentially dignified and thoughtful performance by Sen. John Kerry, contrasted with an oddly giggly turn by President Bush, combined to give the last debate of the presidential campaign to the challenger last night, but very narrowly. Bush seems to have been taken apart and put back together again after each debate, reassembled according to estimates of how he'd done. Last night it looked as though his handlers had told him to smile, smile, smile, especially when Kerry was trying to make points, points, points. ... washingtonpost.com

To: Neocon who wrote (147813)	10/14/2004 10:58:27 AM
From: michael97123	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

I thought he kicked ass too but we may have to face the fact that we could be out of touch with what undecideds are concentrating on. Some care about health care, some stem cell, some choice. Others dont understand that kerry cant pay for what he promises without devastating tax increases on everyone. Many buy into the tax the rich line which, if enacted, (dividends and marginal rates) would cripple the economy. The line that these were clinton tax rates sways them as if sopping up excess cash in boom times mirrors what we are dealing with now. Also most folks think iraq is a mess and with 4-6 folks dying each day it seems, that perception does bush much harm. Top that off with kerry looking like a TV president like james broland would look and we have some problems. Of course i am from the NE and largely liberal on social issues. How the debate plays where folks are pro-life, anti-gay marriage is another. mike

To: Neocon who wrote (147813)	10/14/2004 12:06:01 PM
From: Dr. Id	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

Another Rashomon Moment... I thought that Bush looked terrible in the beginning, and only recovered in the last half hour. He was grinning, looked nervous...had a weird cackling response to things that weren't that funny... As for Kerry's reference to Cheney's LESBIAN daughter, was it any more gratuitous than Bush's references to Ted Kennedy and somehow fitting in that Kerry is the the "far left of the mainstream"? Obvious Rovian tactics and an attempt to stir up fear among the ignorant... And, to refer to any of his references as gratuitous and "disgusting" in contrast to a campaign run by Carl Rove sounds a bit like the pot calling the kettle black. They can dish it out all they want, but when met by something similar they complain... Besides, is Cheney ashamed of his daughter's sexual orientation (I mean, the fact that she is a LESBIAN?) :)

To: Neocon who wrote (147813)	10/14/2004 3:01:46 PM
From: Michael Watkins	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

1. Bush kicked ass. He was marginally better than the second debate, but didn't answer several questions. He didn't answer questions about jobs; about "outsourcing" or about social security. While I am a HUGE proponent of education as an issue of strategic importance, every time Bush retreated to Education as the cure all without specific focus on the issue. Looked weak. Bottom line: he appealed to his base; few truly in the middle swing voters would move to him on domestic issues unless a) they are predisposed to thinking the war is great, the war is good and/or are feeling stronger financially personally and their freinds and family are in a similar situation. Are you better off than 4 years ago, in other words. Quite a few people can say no to that question, which makes the swing vote hard for Bush to attract unless they fall for scare tactics. The deception leading into the war and unbelievably bad management of the war since makes that a hard one to swallow. 2.Look at the longer term polls, not these high margin of error spot checks. Agreed. I do think there is some value in Kerry being perceived the winner of all three. 3. Kerry looked terrible at the beginning of the debate, although better towards the end. Made me wonder if internal polling were bad. I didn't note this. I noted they both have similar suits and ties on. 4. The reference to the daughter was gratuitous, and almost certainly an attempt to stir up the presumed homophobes among conservatives against the ticket. It was disgusting. I didn't find this disgusting but ungainly in its delivery. Kerry and Edwards should practice what they are going to say and say it more cleanly if they are going to go there. His general comment about respect for all people sounded far more genuine than Bush's, and that is likely to reasonate more with those who actually watched. If someone sees only a narrower clip of that response on TV, that will be perceived as a negative or at least cumbersome. In the end I gave Kerry a margin of victory but no where near the lead that the insta polls gave him - a 6.5 out of 10 for continuing to reach farther than his base while also shoring up his base. Bush I could not give more than 5/10. Giving him more points just because he didn't fall apart doesn't work in my books. He's the incumbent and therefore should be able to more effectively rebut criticism, but pithy lines stood in the way of clairty. Lack of response to direct questions reduced score.