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Politics : Formerly About Advanced Micro Devices -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: brian1501 who wrote (206618)10/15/2004 12:46:29 AM
From: TigerPaw  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 1572507
 
He then calls out Kerry's daughter for showing her boobs to the whole planet with that see-through dress she wore in Cannes.

Would that be fair game? I think not.


It would be fair game if Kerry had been proposing a constitutional amendment to ban the viewing of nipples.

TP



To: brian1501 who wrote (206618)10/15/2004 2:10:11 AM
From: tejek  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 1572507
 
The debate question is about family values, Bush responds about the poor values you see in America today and in Hollywood. He then calls out Kerry's daughter for showing her boobs to the whole planet with that see-through dress she wore in Cannes.

May be the problem is you equate having a lesbian daughter with a fashion mistake that turned an evening dress into something slightly pornographic under heavy lights. Being gay is not the equivalent of picking the wrong dress........its a lifestyle.

And I don't think Kerry was trying to denigrate anyone nor hurt the Republican ticket when he made those comments about Cheney's daughter. I know you won't believe that nor this.......that he was very sincere when he made those comments. I believe his comments were sincere because of the way he spoke on a tv show recently, featuring just he and his wife, where they spoke of their own own children. He was very respectful of their individuality and I don't think he would intentionally do anything to hurt them or someone else's children.

I do think that in the Republican milieu, homosexuality is still a taboo subject and Republicans have trouble getting their arms around the subject. I also think that the Bush campaign is fearful Kerry's comments will hurt their ticket. I think their fears are unfounded.

In any case, that's the last I will defend Kerry on this subject. If you want to believe it was mean spirited and inappropriate, you are welcome to do so. I just can't agree with you.

ted



To: brian1501 who wrote (206618)10/15/2004 2:51:04 AM
From: tejek  Read Replies (5) | Respond to of 1572507
 
Brian, this article discusses the controversy over Kerry's comments re. Mary Cheney. What I find interesting is that Edwards brought up the same issue two weeks before and Cheney thanked him for his comments.

Frankly, its looking to me more like a tempest in a teapot.

ted

*******************************************************

Debate flap: Kerry hit for mentioning Cheney's gay child

Joe Garofoli, Chronicle Staff Writer

Friday, October 15, 2004


The hottest post-presidential debate chatter Thursday wasn't about the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden, the high cost of health care or wayward scowls. It was over the appropriateness of discussing the sexual orientation of Mary Cheney, the lesbian daughter of Vice President Dick Cheney.

While the Kerry/Edwards-Cheney family spat made for good sound bites, experts say it was little more than late-season politics at its most partisan.

Mary's mother, Lynne Cheney, said Democratic presidential nominee Sen. John Kerry was "not a good man" for mentioning her 34-year-old daughter's lesbianism during Wednesday's debate. Dick Cheney said Thursday that he was "an angry father."

The fuss began when Kerry mentioned Mary Cheney during Wednesday night's debate in his reply to a question, "Do you think homosexuality is a choice?"

After Bush replied, "I don't know. I just don't know," and urged the need for tolerance, Kerry replied that "we're all God's children."

"And I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian," Kerry continued, "she would tell you that she's being who she was. She's being who she was born as. I think if you talk to anybody, it's not a choice."

Neither parent explained what Kerry did that was offensive -- Mary Cheney has long been out as a lesbian, has been a member of a Republican gay-straight alliance, and reportedly earns $100,000 for being a top adviser to her father's campaign.

Their reactions prompted Elizabeth Edwards, the wife of Democratic vice presidential candidate Sen. John Edwards, to say that Lynne Cheney "overreacted to this and treated it as if it's shameful to have this discussion. I think that it indicates a certain degree of shame with respect to her daughter's sexual preferences."

While gay advocates wished Thursday's sound-bite volleys would evolve into an overdue national discussion about gay children, experts said there was little chance that it would transcend the rawest red-meat political pandering.

Both sides are seeking slices of those few voters who say they're still "undecided."

Yet experts predict neither side will gain much from this exchange. And they differ as to where -- if anywhere -- Kerry was aiming.

Did Kerry mention Mary Cheney to appeal to conservatives by showing that he and the vice president share common ground regarding same-sex marriage (both oppose it)? Or was he subtly reminding undecided women who might be morally opposed to homosexuality that Cheney's daughter is gay?

Was he showing the duplicity between Cheney's obvious love for his daughter and the administration's support of a same-sex marriage ban? Just being a nice guy?

As for Lynne Cheney, was she appealing to undecided moms by defending her child? Or did she alienate middle-of-the-road voters who don't consider it a real issue?

Or did she take flight from the talking points without telling anyone, and the GOP was trying to cover for her?

"It's impossible to look into someone's soul. But it was all very strategic and very surgical," said Barbara O'Connor, professor of political communication at Sacramento State University. As for Thursday's chatter evolving into a thoughtful national discussion, O'Conner said, "Not with three weeks left before the election."

Said GOP consultant Dan Schnur: "The entire exchange solidifies both candidates' support, but it doesn't move any voters. If same-sex marriage was your issue, then you decided who you were going to vote for a long time ago."

Republican operatives didn't mention Kerry's comment Wednesday in their post-debate comments in the media "spin room." During last week's vice presidential debate, John Edwards similarly invoked Mary Cheney -- and praised her parents -- in response to a question about same-sex unions.

Said Edwards, "And you can't have anything but respect for the fact that they're willing to talk about the fact that they have a gay daughter, the fact that they embrace her. It's a wonderful thing."

After Edwards' comments in the debate, moderator Gwen Ifill told Cheney, "Mr. Vice President, you have 90 seconds."

"Well, Gwen," Cheney said, "let me simply thank the senator for the kind words he said about my family and our daughter. I appreciate that very much."

"That's it?" Ifill asked.

"That's it," Cheney said.


Lynne Cheney has been even more publicly conflicted about her daughter. Four years ago, when ABC reporter Cokie Roberts asked Lynne Cheney about her daughter being openly gay, Lynne Cheney said, "My daughter has never declared such a thing.''

Mary Cheney has long been a lightning rod for political controversy.

Jerry Falwell once called her "errant." After Bush's election, she joined the Republican Unity Coalition, a gay-straight organization, and said, "We can make sexual orientation a non-issue for the Republican Party." She has since left the group.


"I'm not angry at Mary Cheney, I'm angry with the way they've handled her," said Chrissy Gephardt, the 31-year-old daughter of Rep. Richard Gephardt, D-Mo., an unsuccessful candidate for the Democratic nomination. Out since 2001, she called Mary Cheney last summer, as one gay political daughter to another. Cheney never called back.

"You never hear Bush or Cheney even say the word 'lesbian,' " Gephardt said. "It's like it's a dirty word. When John Kerry said the word 'lesbian' in the debate, it probably made their toes curl."

Speaking to 800 people after a debate-watching party in suburban Pittsburgh on Wednesday night, Lynne Cheney said: "I did have a chance to assess John Kerry once more, and now the only thing I could conclude: This is not a good man."

"Of course, I am speaking as a mom, and a pretty indignant mom. ... What a cheap and tawdry political trick.'' She didn't expand on what the trick was.


Speaking in Florida on Thursday, Dick Cheney said, "You saw a man who will do and say anything to get elected, and I am not just speaking as a father here, although I am a pretty angry father."

Kerry issued a statement Thursday: "I love my daughters. They love their daughter. I was trying to say something positive about the way strong families deal with this issue.''


Kerry "could have made his point about gay and lesbian Americans without mentioning the vice president's daughter," said a statement Thursday from the Log Cabin Republicans, a gay GOP organization.

"However, this shouldn't distract us from the fact that President Bush, Karl Rove and other Republicans have been using gay and lesbian families as a political wedge issue in this campaign."

On his Web log Thursday, conservative commentator Andrew Sullivan, who is gay, wrote: "In many speeches on marriage rights, I cite Mary Cheney. Why? Because it exposes the rank hypocrisy of people like President Bush and Dick and Lynne Cheney who don't believe gays are anti-family demons but want to win the votes of people who do.

"I'm not outing any gay person," Sullivan wrote. "I'm outing the double standards of straight ones."


sfgate.com



To: brian1501 who wrote (206618)10/15/2004 10:50:29 AM
From: SilentZ  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 1572507
 
>The debate question is about family values, Bush responds about the poor values you see in America today and in Hollywood. He then calls out Kerry's daughter for showing her boobs to the whole planet with that see-through dress she wore in Cannes.

>Would that be fair game? I think not.

Once again, being a "slut" is an insult. Being a "lesbian" is not.

Some more from Andrew Sullivan on the topic:

Oh, now I get it. James Taranto is suddenly aghast and upset at gay-baiting! Better late than never, I suppose. In fact, I'm deeply heartened by so many Republicans suddenly concerned about the smearing of homosexuals for political purposes. The reason for Taranto's assertion? He says that Kerry was pandering to the anti-gay parts of the Democratic base, by letting the last few souls on earth know, in an entirely positive way, that the vice-president's daughter is openly gay. And the way Kerry "gay-baited" was to say that homosexuality is not a choice, that he supports equal rights for gay couples, and that Mary Cheney helps prove that being gay isn't a choice. That'll rile 'em up in the trenches, won't it? Seriously, I've called out anti-gay statements by Democrats in the past; and have a long record of sniffing out homophobia and the use of it, wherever it's coming from. Certainly my record is, shall we say, more substantial than Taranto's in this regard. And I fail to see how Kerry's remark could be understood in any conceivable way as gay-baiting. It never occurred to me when I heard it. It does not occur to me now. You know what is based in gay-baiting? Implicitly, clearly, shamelessly: the Bush-Cheney campaign. The GOP has a nutty candidate in Illinois who called Mary Cheney a "selfish hedonist" - but Dick Cheney wasn't an "angry dad," then. Lynne Cheney didn't call that "tawdry." So Bush runs the most anti-gay national campaign ever and it's his opponent who gets tarred as a homophobe! Brilliant, even by Rove's standards. And when it comes to gay-baiting, there are few as practised as Rove. The sheer nerve of these hypocrites never ceases to amaze.

-Z