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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (148845)10/24/2004 1:32:41 PM
From: Michael Watkins  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Coaltion troops have found French missiles in Iraq. With a datestamp of 2002 on them.

Sigh...

The assertion you made is absolutely incorrect, backed up by a number of sources including the very troops/country that found the "missiles" in the first place.

You need to stop accepting everything that supports your predetermined conclusion at face value.

1. Article: "The WASHINGTON TIMES' "French Connection" to Saddam is a Phony" - Doug Ireland, self admittedly a "radical political journalist" and democrat supporter.

"A week after Ewald's A-10 was downed, an Army team searching Iraqi weapons depots at the Baghdad airport discovered caches of French-made missiles. One anti-aircraft missile, among a cache of 51 Roland-2s from a French-German manufacturing partnership, bore a label indicating that the batch was produced just months earlier."

I e-mailed Gertz's article to my friend Claude Angeli, dean of French investigative reporters, author of a raft of books on Frrench politics and foreign policy, and the editor of the weekly Le Canard Enchaine, known for its investigative prowess. Claude rang me from Paris this morning, chuckling. He had just spoken to a senior French military officer, to whom he had forwarded Gertz's article, and this general--who was quite familiar with these old charges, which had been raised during the war and before Saddam's fall-- was laughing too. "The whole article is a tissue of inventions," Claude told me. "The general, too, laughed at the gross errors."

As to the Roland missiles Gertz claimed had been "produced just months earlier," Angeli informed me, missiles of this type had not been manufactured for 17 years. They had been sold to Iraq at the time of the Iran-Iraq war, when the U.S. was also supplying Iraq with arms, military technology, and intelligence as a result of its policy to maintain Baghdad as a counterweight to Tehran in the region. And the deterioiration of such missiles--particularly their electronic components, which require constant maintenance--would have been so great after 17 years that they would have been virtually unusable.

Moreover, while U.S. forces had discovered the number "2002" on a case containing the missiles, this was not a date of manufacture but a serial number! Angeli, who has excellent sources at the Quai d'Orsay, told me that this supposed "discovery" of Gertz's was so obviously false that it had not even been a matter of contention between the U.S. and France at the time of the war, let alone today.

2. French Government denies claims.

diplomatie.gouv.fr

Like several other western states, including the US by the way, France exported weapons to Iraq in the 1970s and 1980s: Roland 1 missiles and firing systems in 1980-81, Roland 2 missiles and firing systems in 1983-86. All deliveries, including spare parts, were broken off in the summer of 1990. France has strictly observed the embargo on weapons since then.

We confirm in particular that there was no export of Roland missiles or parts to Iraq after 1990. The marking cited by Newsweek (05/11 KND 2002) does not correspond to markings used by the French MBDA company on these missiles.
Roland 1 and 2 went out of production in 1988 and 1993 respectively. So it's impossible for a Roland 2 to have been manufactured in 2002.

[MW: Of course, you'd expect that, from those dastardly French. But wait...]

3. Poland: French Missile Report Was Wrong

Yes, Coalition partner Poland admits it made a mistake.

An aide to the Polish prime minister said an initial report that the Roland missiles found by Polish troops days ago were produced in 2003 was incorrect. France said it stopped producing any type of Roland missile in 1993.

Prime Minister Leszek Miller met with Chirac twice to explain the mistake, said the aide, Tadeusz Iwinski. The two leaders were in Rome on Saturday for a European Union summit.

``There can be no 2003 missiles since these missiles have not been made for 15 years,' Chirac told reporters in Rome. ``Polish soldiers confused things. I told ... Miller so frankly -- friendly but firmly.'

An aide to the Polish prime minister said an initial report that the Roland missiles found by Polish troops days ago were produced in 2003 was incorrect.


Full story: chron.com

So is POLAND, a "coalition of the willing" partner lying, or not?

4. History of the Euromissile/Hughes/Boeing MIM-115 Roland

astronautix.com

The Roland was much more successful with European and other international customers, though. In the mid-1980s, an improved Roland III system was developed, which included an uprated missile with range, speed and warhead improvements a well as improved launchers and tracking systems. Roland is still in service with several countries, and more than 25000 missile rounds have been built.

Thus the French claim that they stopped producing the missile over a decade ago makes perfect sense.

This matter was put to bed last year; its amusing that a Washington Post journalist put these FACTUAL ERRORS in his book anyway. And its amusing that you are still citing this as "evidence".



To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (148845)10/24/2004 2:03:33 PM
From: Michael Watkins  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
From time to time, sure. But France runs its foreign policy purely for cash. Who sold Saddam his nuclear reactors? Whose government was on the take from Saddam's Oil-for-Food scam and stood to gain billions the day Iraqi sanctions were lifted?

Don't forget, *American companies and individuals* have been implicated in oil for food program violations, just not "officially" named for "privacy concerns".

The US has a long history of selling weapons technology, as well as civilian and military expertise, to rogue regimes and guerilla operations. Lets not forget we helped Bin Laden out years ago. The US suported Saddam, after all, with all sorts of goodies. Boeing and Hughes were caught and fined millions for providing China with technology that could be used in the development of ICBM's.

Even Dick Cheney's company sold prohibited technology to regimes like Libya; just before becoming Bush's running mate he was actively lobbying for access to sell technology to Iran, an avowed enemy and under US sanctions.

Was money Dick Cheney's motivation or altrusim?

Money, of course.

As for your contention that France runs its foreign policy with nothing but cash as the bottom line, I contend you could say the same about the US if you want to go there.

The bottom line is this: The US is no more innocent than any other major weapons producing nation, just more powerful -- not just military might but from immense wealth -- a perfect petri dish for growing corruption.



To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (148845)10/24/2004 2:16:08 PM
From: Don Hurst  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Nadine, when I saw Freidman's column below on Oct 11, I obviously thought of my post to you re the PMDs as he calls them and where were they when Saddam was in power. Your answer said that Saddam did not have to worry about them because he would just wipe out all their families, friends, neighbors, dogs, cats, camels and poison their wells. Well maybe that is true or maybe life under Saddam just was not all that unbearable under his regime. Yeah, yeah...heresy, I know, particularly if your preachers are Chalaby, Alawi and the neocons.

They just seem to keep coming now (160 or more?), willing to kill fellow Iraqis, muslems, Americans and other foreigners and themselves and there are no videos of them made in advance and I seriously doubt that old canard that Saddam was paying 25K (or was it 30K or 35K or 20k to the families???) is valid.

So what is going on now and just what have we unleashed? How many Iraqis has this crazy invasion created that now want their revenge but are not yet ready to die for it?

You know, we had this hornet's nest contained and what did this administration do??....., the craziest thing possible ...they stuck their hand in it and stirred it up.

Oh yeah, we are safer now..give this bunch of clowns more years???



THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

Monday , October 11, 2004

PMDs: The other intelligence failure

Much attention was paid last week to the huge intelligence failure of the Bush team in Iraq. Saddam Hussein had no WMD. But there is another, equally egregious intelligence failure when it comes to Iraq, one that is still bedeviling us: It is our complete ignorance about the PMD of Iraq — the people of mass destruction, suicide bombers — and the environment that nurtures them. The intelligence failure was not just about the chemicals Saddam was mixing; it was about the emotions he was brewing in Iraqi society.
There have been some 125 suicide bomb attacks against US forces in Iraq in the last 16 months, carried out most likely by Sunni Muslims. What is even more unnerving is that, unlike the Hamas, who produce videos of themselves, explain their rationale and say goodbye to families, virtually all the bombers in Iraq have blown themselves up without even telling us their names.

To put it bluntly: We are up against an enemy we do not know and cannot see — but who is undermining the whole US mission. In fairness, this sort of network is very hard to crack, especially when it has the support of many Sunnis, but our ignorance about it is part of a broader lack of understanding of changes within Iraqi society.

When I visited Iraq after the war, what struck me most was how utterly broken it was. The 35 years of Saddam’s misrule, including a decade of UN sanctions, had decimated Iraq’s physical and social infrastructure. The young masked gunmen sawing people’s heads off last week came of age in this vacuum, which was filled in by religion — some of it injected by Saddam for his own reasons, and some of it flowing over the borders, mainly from Saudi Arabia, Syria and Iran.

For the past few decades there has been ‘‘a surge of Islamic identity, not just in Iraq, but all over the Arab world’’, said Yitzhak Nakash, a Brandeis University expert on Shiite Islam. ‘‘We definitely ignored it. We were in denial.’’ But Saddam recognized its potential, Nakash said. On the Shiite side he allowed Muqtada al-Sadr’s father to lead Friday prayers in hopes of soaking up the religious energy among Shiites and directing it away from the regime. When the elder al-Sadr turned it on Saddam instead, Saddam had him killed in 1999. On the Sunni side, Saddam went on a mosque-building spree, to bolster his legitimacy, and tolerated an infusion of Wahhabi Islam from Saudi Arabia to counterbalance the Shiites.

By the time the US invaded Iraq, ‘‘Islam was a potent force,’’ Nakash said. ‘‘Iraq was no longer a largely secular country, waiting to embrace America.’’ Does this mean all is lost in Iraq? Not necessarily, Nakash argues. It does mean that we have to alter our strategy and narrow our short-term expectations. The Shiites and the Kurds, who are 80 percent of Iraq’s population, still want a democratic Iraq. That is a foundation for hope. However, the first manifestation of any democratic Iraq will almost certainly be strongly influenced, if not dominated, by religious figures. We will not go from Saddam to Jefferson without going through Grnd Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani — the ayatollah we can work with. You just hope that the road will be short.

(New York Times)


URL: indian-express.com