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Politics : Is Secession Doable? -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: TimF who wrote (1095)	11/11/2004 7:07:45 PM
From: Road Walker	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 1968

re: Communists used to be massively deadly and are still deadly in North Korea, and potentially deadly elsewhere but much less so than they used to be. Christians are not particularly deadly. Sure a lot of killing is done by Christians (esp. if you count those that are only nominally Christian), but little of that is in the name of Christianity at least since about 1650 or so. OK, I asked you to prove your claim of 10's of millions killed by communism. Obviously you can't prove that claim, you made it up. I never "claimed" that Christians killed more than communists. But you put those words in my mouth, and I think that it might be true. But I don't have time to do the research... here is a site about Christian killing, I wish I had the time to look through it all... maybe you do. Have fun. It's interesting, and even you may agree as abhorrent as the killings by the communists? No... all you do is argue, you never listen... humphrys.humanists.net Historical killings for Christianity The Church started killing unbelievers as early as the 4th century. The killing (often with torture) of heretics, church splinter groups, dissenters, infidels and unbelievers was supported by almost all mainstream Christian theology for over a thousand years, starting with the ignorant St. Augustine. The martyrdom of Christians at the hands of the Romans (also here and here). This was one type of fascist killing another type of fascist - as was shown when the Christians finally got into power. The Inquisition and Slavery killings for Christianity through history (see also here and here) The Crusades In 1095, Pope Urban II made this speech to launch the blood-letting of The Crusades. Rudolph J. Rummel estimates the Crusades butchered 1 million innocent civilian men, women and children (not in combat). In 1209, Pope Innocent III called for a crusade to exterminate the Cathar people of France (the Albigensians), simply because they had different superstitious beliefs to his own stupid beliefs. Men, women and children were butchered by the Pope's forces. See article and here. Rudolph J. Rummel estimates they butchered 200,000 innocent men, women and children In 1233, Pope Gregory IX encouraged the extermination of the Stedinger people of Friesland, on the imaginary grounds that they were in league with the (equally-imaginary) Devil. "The devil appears to them in different shapes", said his holiness, "sometimes as a goose or a duck". The entire people were exterminated. Ignorant Christian thinkers such as St. Thomas Aquinas continued to justify the killing of heretics and unbelievers throughout the medieval period. St. Thomas Aquinas justifies killing people who are not convinced by his arguments. See the Summa Theologica, 2nd Part of the 2nd Part, Question 11, Article 3. See also here. The Inquisition The Spanish Inquisition was approved by Pope Sixtus IV in 1484. The pioneer atheist and scientific thinker Giulio Cesare Vanini was burnt by the Inquisition of Rome in 1619. Rudolph J. Rummel estimates that the Inquisition butchered 350,000 innocent men, women and children Witch-hunting - perhaps Christianity's worst crime. Think how many poor innocents have been killed for God; how few have ever been killed for Satan. The Papacy's crimes of witch burning were based on the grossest superstitions - for example, the weather cannot have natural causes but must be caused by witches. This would be comical provided we do not think about what happened to the utterly innocent victims of these delusions - men, women and little children picked from the populace at random and tortured and put to death. The Papacy should hang its head for ten thousand years in shame for what it did. See here and here and here and here. Pope Innocent VIII - probably the most evil of all the Popes, in the number of innocent men, women and children killed because of his words. Read his moronic declaration against witches in 1484. Essentially, because the causes of disease, bad weather, and other problems were not known in those dark times, their causes were attributed to imaginary witches who must be hidden in the populace. This was followed by The Witch Hammer (1486). Thou Shalt Not Suffer a Woman to Live Timelines of Witch-hunting for world and England, Ireland and Scotland. Reading this should make you angry. Protestantism had no problem with the witch-burning, and continued the butchery of innocents long after the Reformation. For example, the "King James Bible" comes from one of these murderers. Luther, Calvin and Wesley supported the killing, just as they opposed science. The Salem witch hunt Many people think 1 million innocents were killed by the witch-hunters, though Rudolph J. Rummel thinks 100,000. Witch-hunting survives into the present day with the hysterical belief in satanic ritual abuse. Extraordinary Popular Delusions And The Madness Of Crowds by Charles Mackay (1841) (also here and here) has excellent accounts of: The Crusades (also here and here) The Witch-hunting (also here and here) The killing of Jews Fascism Christianity and the Holocaust The killing of scientists and thinkers

To: TimF who wrote (1095)	11/12/2004 1:44:14 PM
From: tejek	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 1968

Let's just agree that communists and Christians are both deadly. I don't think that is an accurate statement. Communists used to be massively deadly and are still deadly in North Korea, and potentially deadly elsewhere but much less so than they used to be. Christians are not particularly deadly. Sure a lot of killing is done by Christians (esp. if you count those that are only nominally Christian), but little of that is in the name of Christianity at least since about 1650 or so. In who's name is the killing in Iraq being done? One platoon gets baptized before going into battle. Others have church services before battles. Americans are killing Iraqis in the name of God and Iraqis are killing Americans in the name of Allah. ted