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To: unclewest who wrote (87165)	11/19/2004 8:57:01 AM
From: Oral Roberts	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 793688

I guess I'm one of those whities and it's quite obvious to me that it's racist. There is little doubt had there been a cartoon like that of Sharpton or Jackson it would be much easier for K to see the racism. I can't wait for the ignore feature to work when reading 10 at a time and then I won't have to see some of these folks drivel at all.

To: unclewest who wrote (87165)	11/19/2004 9:56:57 AM
From: Lane3	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 793688

That is difficult to see. You have disputed every other pov posted on this subject. I understand that it is difficult for you to see. We come at this from two different places. So I'm going to explain my approach to you. The whole idea of disputing points is to get to the bottom of some subject. It's a collaborate effort. When we listen actively to others and then dispute their points, we are concurrently giving them feedback on the soundness of their positions and clarifying our own positions. This is an iterative analytical process which, when practiced in good faith by competent people, results in greater understanding all around and better quality positions. The end objective is wisdom. It has nothing to do with winning or losing because the participants are on the same team with the same objective even thought the process is superficially confrontational. I can "win" just as well by getting enough constructive feedback from you to adopt your position as I can getting you to accede to mine or as I can from a more enlightened stalemate. When we have one party taking my approach and another party thinking in terms of wins and losses, it doesn't work very well for either. You are not engaging with me in my exercise and I am not engaging with you in yours, although you might not recognize the latter since you don't recognize the difference in my approach. I gave you a tip on where to find the answer as to the racist quality of that caricature. And I thank you for that. New information is always welcome. Unfortunately, this didn't pan out. I've been all over the internet this morning and can find no reference to racism and parrot head mama. The best I can come up with is some recipes from someone who calls herself that. I will check it out with black friends who grew up in the south at such time as the opportunity presents itself--if it hasn't slipped my mind by then. You are sustaining racism by refusing to accept the notion that someone else might dare to see a racist quality in something you don't. What to do about racism at this point in the struggle against it is in flux. Racism hasn't ended. But it is nothing like it was in the sixties when I was engaged in the movement. Reasonable people can differ on what to do now. My view is that we have been shifting shift gears into a post-movement approach. The old paradigm is worn out. Complaints of racism are in silly territory when "water buffalo" becomes an racial epithet, when the culture of victimization becomes entrenched, and when PC rules. There are signs everywhere that self consciousness about race is fading and I believe it's my duty to the movement to contribute to that. We cannot tolerate racism but neither can we let "professional victims" define what is racist. That needs to be a collaborative process among people of good will. That is why I challenge racist comments when confronted with them and also challenge excessive charges of racism. Many American whites will not see the racist tones. That is certainly no surprise. They never have. Most blacks will recognize the racist qualities of the piece immediately. Therein lies the enlightenment. Letting racists set the standard is not constructive. Neither is letting it be set by the most sensitive of victims or their bleeding heart enablers.

To: unclewest who wrote (87165)	11/19/2004 6:13:09 PM
From: TimF	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 793688

The fact that you or any other whitey is not offended by the cartoon does not preclude it being racist... ...If you want to test the racist tones of that piece don't take it to Starbucks on Beacon Hill or Dupont Circle instead take it to the streets of Roxbury or NW Washington DC. The fact that some "whitey" is not offended doesn't mean it is not racist, but the fact that a black person might be offended doesn't make it is racist either. I'm not saying it isn't racist, or that it is. Racism is about thought and motivations and intent more than it is about the picture itself. If the cartoonist meant it to project a racist image, or felt racial animosity towards Rice (whether its towards blacks in general or perhaps even considering non-liberal blacks to be "uncle toms") than its racist. But I can only guess at what the cartoonist feels and thinks. Some racism is obvious. Someone gets dressed up in a KKK outfit and starts burning crosses and beating up black people and you don't have to be a mind reader to call that person a racist, but this IMO is less obvious. I can say that the cartoon has similarities with other drawings that where racist. Also one thing seems clear, the cartoonist doesn't like Rice, whether this dislike is based on race or not I don't know. You are making yourself appear to be one of a group of Americans, who because they are blind to a prejudice, think it does not exist. You can be well aware of prejudice in general, and of prejudice against particular groups, and of some of the ways that prejudice has historically been expressed, without rushing to a quick judgment that a specific expression is racist. The charge of racism is considered a quite serious charge. I am reluctant to make it without the most clear and certain evidence. Tim