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Politics : Moderate Forum -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Brumar89 who wrote (14229)	11/30/2004 11:15:19 PM
From: Michael Watkins	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 20773

I didn't argue that 1546 did not establish legitimacy on paper of the Interim Iraqi Government (one which no Iraqi citizen had a say in, by the way) -- I'm merely pointing out that Iraq is saddled with debt of a variety of types, dating from Gulf War I, including the current war, that were in large part caused by our actions. Imagine all the water and sewage treatment plants and most of the power plants in the State of California being bombed; all military equipment in that State of any utility destroyed; half the military killed; most of the rest disbanded; a large percentage of California's children malnourished; 15,000 - 30,000 civilians dead at our hands, large areas of cities demolished, no functioning gasoline refineries in operation -- just imagine how much debt California would rack up in trying to rebuild from such a situation. Now here comes those which bombed LA into submission, offering money (debt) security (for a price -- killin' terrorists in Falluja is not a "free" service you know, and more debt), construction (with debt),... well, perhaps you can get the picture. Mortgage someone else future is just another way of implementing tyranny. Of course this scheme only works if you get to install a government (currently Allawi, hand picked by the US) that will play ball and pay the bills later. What happens if a more independent government is elected?

To: Brumar89 who wrote (14229)	12/1/2004 3:38:06 AM
From: Proud Deplorable	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 20773

"The Iraqi interim government is recognized by the UN and every government in the world. UNSC Resolution 1546 strongly endorses our current efforts to establish democracy in Iraq. It is true that the UN did not bless the invasion of Iraq. But that is not the case with what is going on there now. We are currently fulfilling the expressed will of the UN. Item 1 and 4 endorse the current interim government and the plans for elections. Item 9, 10, and 14 authorizes the multinational force (which happens to be US and our coalition partners) to maintain security until Iraq's new security forces can handle that. Item 15 requests other countries to join the coalition. Item 12 is the exit strategy for the multinational force. Item 17 condemns the activities of the "insurgents". "Also, he said, the resolution clearly stated that from now on, the Iraqi armed forces and security forces would not be part of the multinational force. They were to be placed under the sole authority of the Iraqi Government and it would be up to the Government to decide whether to commit them, if it deemed it necessary or desirable, to multinational force operations" BTW this resolution, like so many other similar ones, may have been endorsed but nowhere in the comments by the signatories does it suggest that the coalition of the idiots and war criminals (USA, UK, AUS and LOL Poland) be the enforcement arm of the resolution. If you read the careful crafted wording by each country, most of them are going along with this to get rid of the USA and bring some law and order to Iraq which the USA has managed to completely destroy. You see, not only is the war unlawful and illegal but the USA entered Iraq under false pretences. Now, at this point in time, like it should have been done originally but the USA acted unilaterally, the world has thrown up its hands and said 'we have to look after the best interests of Iraqis whether or not they choose a western style democracy or not'. The fatal flaw in this whole US plan rammed down the throats of the UN, is that Iraqis want the USA out and as every day passes the US makes more innocent Iraqis into "insurgents" which by the way is not a bad thing to be whatsoever. Insurgents are HEROS. You conveniently forget the Polish Insurgents that fought Hitler and NO ONE HELPED THEM. Funny how history repeats itself.

To: Brumar89 who wrote (14229)	12/1/2004 12:48:07 PM
From: tsigprofit	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 20773

In Falluja's Ruins, Big Plans and a Risk of Chaos By ROBERT F. WORTH Published: December 1, 2004 FALLUJA, Iraq, Nov. 27 - Standing in the rubble outside an empty medical clinic here, Dr. Basam Mohamed, dressed in a blue blazer and work boots, gazed out at the ruins of his native city. He had just heard a group of American civil affairs officers explain their plans to rebuild the clinic and install a huge water tank behind it until the water pipes - smashed by bombs - could be fixed. But Dr. Mohamed, a Health Ministry official in the Iraqi interim government, had other worries. His parents are among the residents who fled Falluja just before the American military offensive here earlier this month, he said. They are eager to return but have no idea how badly the fighting damaged the city. "They will feel hard toward the Americans," Dr. Mohamed said with a wince, as his American guides led him off to look at another ruined clinic. As military officials here prepare to start letting the first residents return to Falluja, possibly as soon as mid-December, they face an unusual challenge: how to win back the confidence of the people whose city they have just destroyed. Their task will be made harder by the need to deter returning insurgents, who will try to sabotage the reconstruction with attacks, commanders say. American officials say they cannot afford to let this former insurgent bastion become a microcosm of the broader struggle in Iraq - a rapid military victory followed by a lapse into violence and chaos. Yet even some American officers here are skeptical about their ability to bring back safely more than a small number of residents in time for the national and provincial elections in January - a central goal of the offensive. Fighting goes on in the city's southern neighborhoods, where small groups of guerrillas are still holding out. American troops have found an unexpectedly large number of weapons storehouses, commanders say, and the need to dispose of them safely has delayed rebuilding efforts in those areas. The full extent of the damage inflicted by American bombs, tanks and artillery is only now becoming apparent. The number of buildings destroyed in the fighting is far higher than 200, the figure released last week by the Iraqi prime minister, Ayad Allawi, engineers and commanders say. The city's power lines are so badly damaged that in most of the city, they will have to be ripped out and rebuilt from scratch - a project that will take six months to a year, American engineers say. Damage to the city's water and sewer pipes, already badly corroded before the invasion, is milder but will also take months to repair. The coordination of all this work will be hard enough, with the Americans saying they will pour in money and expertise but will cede major decisions to the Iraqi interim government. American planners also say it is essential that much of the actual rebuilding work be given to Iraqi contractors but acknowledge that those contractors will be subject to intimidation and that qualified Iraqi engineers may be hard to find. Just last week, as water from broken pipes created chest-deep floods in Falluja's streets, American officers had trouble persuading any of the Iraqi engineers who knew where the valves were located to venture into the city and help shut them off. The role of the city's roughly 250,000 residents, now mostly scattered in other towns throughout the region, may be the most crucial and unpredictable part. It is still far from clear how the military will communicate its neat plan to repopulate the city sector by sector, or how the returnees will react once they arrive. Falluja, where resistance to the American occupation ran high, has a long history as a rebellious city. American officials say they fully understand the risks, and have been planning for them since last spring. Already, American civil affairs teams have begun making condolence payments to residents who were injured or had their houses destroyed in the attack, up to a maximum of $2,500 per person. The interim Iraqi government has also promised $100 to each returning family. nytimes.com (MORE)