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Politics : The Castle -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Mary Cluney who wrote (4233)12/1/2004 11:21:44 AM
From: Neocon1 Recommendation  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 7936
 
Tim is right, I am afraid. The context of the Bible makes clear that the Commandment does not forbid all kinds of killing, or God would not have them wipe out the Canaanites. The fact is, even Jesus is quoted as "bringing not peace but the sword". No one required that soldiers renounce their work in order to become Christians. In fact, most religions etc. recognize the legitimacy of war under some conditions. Islam, of course, sanctions jihad. Judaism had several instances of the righteous use of force in the Old Testament. Famously, the Bhagavad Gita, of Hinduism, shows Arjuna on the eve of battle, doubting whether he should participate, and Krishna tells him not to worry, to do his duty:

Alas! We are ready to commit a great sin by striving to slay our kinsmen because of greed for the pleasures of the kingdom. (1.45)

It would be far better for me if the sons of Dhritaraashtra should kill me with their weapons in battle while I am unarmed and unresisting. (1.46)

Sanjaya said: Having said this in the battle field and casting aside his bow and arrow, Arjuna sat down on the seat of the chariot with his mind overwhelmed with sorrow. (1.47)

Chapter 2: Transcendental Knowledge

Sanjaya said: Lord Krishna spoke these words to Arjuna whose eyes were tearful and downcast, and who was overwhelmed with compassion and despair. (2.01)

The Supreme Lord said: How has the dejection come to you at this juncture? This is not fit for an Aryan (or the people of noble mind and deeds). It is disgraceful, and it does not lead one to heaven, O Arjuna. (2.02)

Do not become a coward, O Arjuna, because it does not befit you. Shake off this weakness of your heart and get up (for the battle), O Arjuna. (2.03)

Arjuna said: How shall I strike Bheeshma and Drona, who are worthy of my worship, with arrows in battle, O Krishna? (2.04)

It would be better, indeed, to live on alms in this world than to slay these noble gurus, because, by killing them I would enjoy wealth and pleasures stained with (theirs) blood. (2.05)

Neither do we know which alternative (to beg or to kill) is better for us, nor do we know whether we shall conquer them or they will conquer us. We should not even wish to live after killing the sons of Dhritaraashtra who are standing in front of us. (2.06)

My heart is overcome by the weakness of pity, and my mind is confused about Dharma. I request You to tell me, decisively, what is better for me. I am Your disciple. Teach me who has taken refuge in You. (2.07) (Dharma may be defined as the eternal law governing, upholding, and supporting the creation and the world order. It also means duty, righteousness, ideal conduct, moral principles, and truth. Adharma is an antonym to Dharma. Expert guidance should be sought during the moment of crisis.)

I do not perceive that gaining an unrivaled and prosperous kingdom on this earth, or even lordship over the gods will remove the sorrow that is drying up my senses. (2.08)

Sanjaya said: O King, after speaking like this to Lord Krishna, the mighty Arjuna said to Krishna: I shall not fight, and became silent. (2.09)

O King, Lord Krishna, as if smiling, spoke these words to the despondent Arjuna in the midst of the two armies. (2.10)

The Supreme Lord said: You grieve for those who are not worthy of grief, and yet speak the words of wisdom. The wise grieve neither for the living nor for the dead. (2.11)

There was never a time when I, you, or these kings did not exist; nor shall we ever cease to exist in the future. (2.12)

eawc.evansville.edu

By the way, I do not think you quite understand just war theory. For example, self- defense is always a legitimate reason to kill someone:

Principles of the Just War
A just war can only be waged as a last resort. All non-violent options must be exhausted before the use of force can be justified.
A war is just only if it is waged by a legitimate authority. Even just causes cannot be served by actions taken by individuals or groups who do not constitute an authority sanctioned by whatever the society and outsiders to the society deem legitimate.
A just war can only be fought to redress a wrong suffered. For example, self-defense against an armed attack is always considered to be a just cause (although the justice of the cause is not sufficient--see point #4). Further, a just war can only be fought with "right" intentions: the only permissible objective of a just war is to redress the injury.
A war can only be just if it is fought with a reasonable chance of success. Deaths and injury incurred in a hopeless cause are not morally justifiable.
The ultimate goal of a just war is to re-establish peace. More specifically, the peace established after the war must be preferable to the peace that would have prevailed if the war had not been fought.
The violence used in the war must be proportional to the injury suffered. States are prohibited from using force not necessary to attain the limited objective of addressing the injury suffered.
The weapons used in war must discriminate between combatants and non-combatants. Civilians are never permissible targets of war, and every effort must be taken to avoid killing civilians. The deaths of civilians are justified only if they are unavoidable victims of a deliberate attack on a military target.

mtholyoke.edu

And you might want to read this:

utm.edu



To: Mary Cluney who wrote (4233)12/1/2004 12:20:11 PM
From: TimF  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 7936
 
Tim Fowler seems to think that God did not speak clearly enough. He thought "Thou Shall not Kill" to mean "Thou shall not commit murder one (1)"

I said nothing about "murder one", I just said murder. In the old testament God supported killings by Israel in a number of circumstances, including killing in wars to take territory.

I don't remember Moses carrying any attachments to the Ten Commandments. There was nothing about Murder II or III. I suppose you could read plea bargaining into the ten Commandments.

No attachments where needed. The commandment itself was thou shall not murder.

There is no recognizable religion, philosophy or school of thought that lays out a functioning society the permits killing of their neighbors.

Just about every major religion, and many relevant philosophical schools of thought support killing under certain circumstances. Also once again violence does not have to mean killing.

Another issue is that even if every major religion or relevant philosophy was against killing, or even against all violence, that wouldn't mean that all people where against killing or violence. If violence is considered wrong under all circumstances, and that idea of right and wrong becomes the basis for society than you can't defend yourself, or your neighbor, or have police defend you or arrest people. You get a situation where the sociopath takes what he wants, and the intelligent ambitious sociopath makes himself king.

Tim