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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: michael97123 who wrote (153947)	12/14/2004 12:46:49 PM
From: cnyndwllr	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 281500

Mike, re: "I would maintain that it is in fact a victory to have removed saddam and established a fledgling democracy that will hopefully succeed. I dont believe that US troops now there or those that biden/mccain say they need to win will in fact win the armed struggle. I think it is more likely for us to have a better outcome with pull back, timetables, withdrawl and dare i say some UN presence with iraqi govt(including sunnis) consent to help move things along." When you're not busy attacking those who disagrees with you, you often make good sense. I have a few comments on your summary. It doesn't matter if we declare victory or not, but we shouldn't be so blind to the facts that we hold out any significant hope for a successful "fledgling democracy." In considering the effect of democracy in Iraq, think of the American South a century or so ago. If someone could have given the South independence and "a fledgling democracy" back then, how do you think that would have worked out for the minority indians and blacks. (Oops, forget the Indians cause we know what happened to them.) Anyway, do you think an independent Southern "democracy" would have been a "good thing" for southern blacks who wanted to keep their property, walk on the sidewalks, self-defend themselves against white crackers, etc.? My point is that "democracy" in a nation with a majority of intolerant and bigoted voters will not solve the problems of a diverse and divided society. It will, however, likely empower the majority segment of that society to impose its will through semi-legitimized means that "legally" employ the police and military powers of the state. So no campfire outings with roasting marshmellows, no women's rights and protections for religious minorities, no secular government, just a big, bad mess. When the culture is intolerant, the will of the majority will enforce that intolerance and the results can be brutal. I agree with your view that we should set the stage for a quick withdrawal. We should give notice, a deadline and employ every effort to give the Iraqi people the option to take their future into their own hands without a huge earthquake of chaos BECAUSE of our exit. If that chaos happens afterwards or despite our efforts, however, that's the way it goes. In effect that means we must recognize and facilitate the empowerment of the clerics. They are, in my view, the only force in Iraq that have the respect and trust of the people and they are, therefor, the only hope for an Iraqi nation that does not slip into anarchy. Forget about the "more troops" option. Insurgencies of men and women who have fought as fiercely as the Iraqi insurgents have, which have grown as strong as this one has, and which have the means and finances this one has at its disposal, will not be defeated unless we're willing to lose a huge number of men, stay for a long time and employ even more brutal measures than we're now employing. On the contrary, such insurgencies grow stronger with every "martyr" or "innocent woman and child" who die at the hands of our soldiers. And what is it that we're fighting for anyway; the illusive "fledgling democracy?" That's like betting the farm to win a ticket to a lottery when the lottery drawing hasn't been held yet. So Mike, keep listening to the thinking part of your brain and forget the emotional part of your brain. In the real world we have to deal with the way things are, not the way we want them to be. Many of the poster you refer to as "lefties" and whom you consider to "hate America" are neither lefties nor American haters; we're simply people who care deeply about this country and are offended by aggressive, ignorant and stubborn policies that are killing our kids, killing Iraqis and making the world a lot more dangerous for our kids and grandkids. And in the end this effort will be viewed by history as one of the most rockheaded, costly and disruptive actions ever taken by a democratic nation. The fact that it evolved from a "pissed off" emotional state will never excuse its poor leadership which should have acted intelligently and instead acted out of fear, greed and a mistaken sense of unlimited power. Ed