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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: michael97123 who wrote (155370)1/6/2005 11:00:17 AM
From: epicure  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
I know people will SAY that all the intel was for WMD existence, but that really isn't true. There was plenty of talk in the press, and elsewhere, that WMD's were not a problem, that Saddam's army was gutted, and that he was not able to rebuild- and some people found the 2003 language on Iraq a bit suspicious when we had read and remembered the 2001 and 2002 language- so rather than being geniuses, people who came to the conclusion MQ did merely had been following the story...
(Not that MQ couldn't be a genius for other reasons)

If you've read Animal Farm, you might get a little suspicious when a government starts spinning the facts 180 degrees. You might think that that maybe you aren't really hearing about all the intel, but only about the intel your administration wants to tell you about, or the intel they "approve" because it fits their ideas about where they want to go. There was intel out there that did not agree with our intel- but the problem is that it was in the foreign press. However, you can see for yourself that the administration changed direction pretty darn quickly. You can work out for yourself whether it was justified, I think.

Ps- there are more links out there, if you are interested in this.
..............

"[At a] press conference on 24 February 2001 during Powell's visit to Cairo, Egypt. Answering a question about the US-led sanctions against Iraq, the Secretary of State said:

We had a good discussion, the Foreign Minister and I and the President and I, had a good discussion about the nature of the sanctions -- the fact that the sanctions exist -- not for the purpose of hurting the Iraqi people, but for the purpose of keeping in check Saddam Hussein's ambitions toward developing weapons of mass destruction. We should constantly be reviewing our policies, constantly be looking at those sanctions to make sure that they are directed toward that purpose. That purpose is every bit as important now as it was ten years ago when we began it. And frankly they have worked. He has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors. So in effect, our policies have strengthened the security of the neighbors of Iraq..."

further

"on 15 May 2001, Powell testified before the Foreign Operations, Export Financing and Related Programs Subcommittee of the Senate Appropriations Committee. Several kind readers with access to Lexis-Nexis sent me the full transcript of the questions-and-answers portion of Powell's testimony. Here's the relevant extract:

Senator Bennett: Mr. Secretary, the U.N. sanctions on Iraq expire the beginning of June. We've had bombs dropped, we've had threats made, we've had all kinds of activity vis-a-vis Iraq in the previous administration. Now we're coming to the end. What's our level of concern about the progress of Saddam Hussein's chemical and biological weapons programs?

Secretary Powell: The sanctions, as they are called, have succeeded over the last 10 years, not in deterring him from moving in that direction, but from actually being able to move in that direction. The Iraqi regime militarily remains fairly weak. It doesn't have the capacity it had 10 or 12 years ago. It has been contained. And even though we have no doubt in our mind that the Iraqi regime is pursuing programs to develop weapons of mass destruction -- chemical, biological and nuclear -- I think the best intelligence estimates suggest that they have not been terribly successful. There's no question that they have some stockpiles of some of these sorts of weapons still under their control, but they have not been able to break out, they have not been able to come out with the capacity to deliver these kinds of systems or to actually have these kinds of systems that is much beyond where they were 10 years ago.

So containment, using this arms control sanctions regime, I think has been reasonably successful. We have not been able to get the inspectors back in, though, to verify that, and we have not been able to get the inspectors in to pull up anything that might be left there. So we have to continue to view this regime with the greatest suspicion, attribute to them the most negative motives, which is quite well-deserved with this particular regime, and roll the sanctions over, and roll them over in a way where the arms control sanctions really go after their intended targets -- weapons of mass destruction -- and not go after civilian goods or civilian commodities that we really shouldn't be going after, just let that go to the Iraqi people. That wasn't the purpose of the oil-for-food program. And by reconfiguring them in that way, I think we can gain support for this regime once again.

When we came into office on the 20th of January, the whole sanctions regime was collapsing in front of our eyes. Nations were bailing out on it. We lost the consensus for this kind of regime because the Iraqi regime had successfully painted us as the ones causing the suffering of the Iraqi people, when it was the regime that was causing the suffering. They had more than enough money; they just weren't spending it in the proper way. And we were getting the blame for it. So reconfiguring the sanctions, I think, helps us and continues to contain the Iraqi regime."

"But Powell wasn't the only senior administration official telling the truth before the truth became highly inconvenient. On 29 July 2001, Condoleezza Rice appeared on CNN Late Edition With Wolf Blitzer (an anonymous reader sent me the full transcript from Lexis-Nexis). Guest host John King asked Rice about the fact that Iraq had recently fired on US planes enforcing the "no-fly zones" in Iraq. Rice craftily responds:

Well, the president has made very clear that he considers Saddam Hussein to be a threat to his neighbors, a threat to security in the region, in fact a threat to international security more broadly.

Notice that she makes it clear that Bush is the one who considers Hussein a threat. She doesn't say, "I consider..." or even, "We consider..."

Then King asks her about the sanctions against Iraq. She replies:

But in terms of Saddam Hussein being there, let's remember that his country is divided, in effect. He does not control the northern part of his country. We are able to keep arms from him. His military forces have not been rebuilt.

King doesn't think to ask Rice, if Hussein hasn't been getting arms and his forces weren't rebuilt after the 1991 Gulf War, why Bush considers him a threat."

thememoryhole.org



To: michael97123 who wrote (155370)1/6/2005 11:06:10 AM
From: Neocon  Respond to of 281500
 
The threat was never primarily a matter of stockpiles. Stockpiles were taken to show malevolence and an ultimate intent to extort concessions. But what was found was enough to support our real concern, namely, that the capability existed to supply terrorists. That is why inspections were beside the point: it was always easy to hide a residual capacity that would have been enough to wreak havoc in an unconventional delivery situation. Thus, the failure to find wmds, though embarrassing, did not obviate the security rationale for the operation. If anything, it heightened it, by making freelancing on the part of Iraqi scientists more imaginable.



To: michael97123 who wrote (155370)1/6/2005 11:28:16 AM
From: GST  Respond to of 281500
 
It was extremely important to the Administration to make sure that you were not well informed at the time -- otherwise you, and others, would have opposed the war. Part of the mis-information process was to vilify the UN inspectors as incompetent UN know-nothings. We could not afford in any way to lend credibility to the inspection process. Nor could we allow dissenting reports to be heard. If there was going to be spinning on this issue, it had to be consistent and it had to show that there was no way to prove that every single wmd was destroyed. Of course this was an absurd standard, but a convenient one to justify a decision that had already been taken -- the decision to invade and occupy Iraq. Playing out this discussion just sparks a respinning of the BS that was laid on a mile thick at the time by Administration apologists.



To: michael97123 who wrote (155370)1/6/2005 3:58:44 PM
From: Maurice Winn  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 281500
 
Michael, I have great reservoirs of cynicism for government officials whose venality is pandemic. <the worlds intel agencies were duped by saddam, the nations had to make their decision based on that data. >

The world's intelligence agencies are notably unintelligent. Time after time they come up with the dopiest ideas. There's something about seeking power and being in government that renders otherwise intelligent people moronic. It's something to do with being part of a dominance hierarchy with no need to do other than ingratiate oneself to the bosses. In the commercial world, there's a countervailing need to ingratiate oneself with customers, which gives a semblance of rationality. In the political world, there's a need to keep voters in mind too, but voters aren't spending their own money, so there's a loss of causal relationships. Plus, governments are so big that they become diffuse and separated from reality.

But people go on voting for more of the same, all around the world, like turkeys voting for another Thanksgiving and an early Xmas.

Saddam didn't dupe the world's intelligence agencies. He was flat out trying to tell everyone that he didn't have weapons of mass destruction. They didn't want to believe him.

It was pretty obvious that if there were any, they weren't in any significant numbers or of particularly good effect. Recall the pathetic scud attacks on Israel during the 1990 war - they didn't have WMDs on board. They were misdirected fizzers. So he wasn't getting a whole lot lined up after that, with UN inspectors and USA spies crawling around Iraq.

Saddam didn't want USA spies targeting this, that and the other, while pretending to be UN helpers, so he sensibly booted them out.

Even at the beginning, he sought permission from the USA to deal with Kuwait draining an oil field which was in both Iraq and Kuwait. Glaspie gave him the green light, as instructed by her bosses in Washington. He knew to check it was okay. They knew he thought Kuwait should be part of Iraq.

They also knew that if Iraqi oil was off the market, it would be great for oil prices [high oil prices are GOOD in oily political circles such as Bushworld, contrary to what J6Pack might think].

Saddam, too late, realized what the game was after he'd taken over Kuwait, by throwing babies out of incubators [oh, hang on, that was more government intelligence - snigger]. He asked whether he pulled out would the sanctions be lifted. I thought, naively, of course they would. But Saddam knew better. Sure enough, he retreated under USA attack but the sanctions remained in place right up until the next war, some "oil for food" dubious activity notwithstanding.

The thing that puzzled me was why Bush I didn't proceed to Baghdad. I thought perhaps Saddam had claimed to have a nuke and he was saving it for a last gasp and had threatened to nuke Israel unless the USA stopped the attack. As it happens, with Pakistan selling noocular goodies [presumably including actual weapons - probably to North Korea], Saddam might well have had one or two.

Oil and energy industry profits have been stupendous since 1990, thanks to Iraqi oil being largely off the market, keeping prices high.

Anyway, here we are in 2005. Saddam is gaoled, Uday and Qusay dead - along with their crazy brothers in law who I still cannot understand going back to Iraq from Jordan to certain death [despite the claim that 'all is foregiven']. That was as nutty as Terry Waite getting kidnapped for a year or so [which was obviously going to happen - crazy!!]

Now everyone is fighting over Iraq's oil and rights to the palaces.

Where to next? There's no move on the New United Nations front, with dog-in-the-manger USA being anti; which will be to their regret in decades to come - another governmental blunder. So it'll be more of the same. Meanwhile, Hu Jintao and Vladimir Putin are planning manoeuvres on "China's territory" for the middle of the Year of the Rooster, aka Year of the Feather Duster [one minute he's strutting around like a rooster, the next, he's a feather duster].

"China's territory" of course means Taiwan.

If the USA had got the NUN geared up, China and Russia would be staring down a LOT bigger barrel than the Taiwanese and possibly some rumbling from the USA. Now, it's just a matter of who blinks first. More's the pity.

There is perhaps still time for the USA to call a dirty great UN reconstitution crisis convention to obviate what could turn out to be serious size catastrophe; North Korea/South Korea/Japan/Russia/Taiwan/USA are all headed for a collision in the Year of the Feather Duster.

People will be thinking that the recent tsunami wasn't really much of a problem by comparison. Neither is Iraq.

Anyway, on with the show. Let the "intelligence agencies" and governments demonstrate their intelligence once again.

Mqurice