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To: jrhana who wrote (34391)	2/20/2005 2:44:41 PM
From: Julian Augustus	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39344

Sorry, but I couldn't resist. How many Venezuelans do you know?

To: jrhana who wrote (34391)	2/20/2005 4:21:30 PM
From: marcos	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 39344

Way too much of the mierda flung by both sides will be too true, imho ... certainly the old oligarchy mismanaged this country to the point where so many were dispossessed that a great majority of voters were ready for a Chávez - that says a lot in itself, and i don't think we should want them back in power, because such a state would be temporary and even worse in its end result ... at the same time the whole chavista thing has definite stalinist overtones to it, with these círculos bolivarianos and all, what they are doing is not revising the system, only changing the faces of who is a Have and who a Have-not Ideally a Ni-ni ideology comes along and captures the imagination of enough to swing a vote ... ni-ni means 'neither-nor' ... something based in part on the ideas of Hernando de Soto, as undogmatically as possible, is what is needed imho The US should stay right out of it, as their history in Latinoamérica is too tainted to be effective ... and 'recognising' that little two-day attempted coup by Cardona et al didn't help it any .... latinos have had enough of the Batistas and Galtieris and Pinochets There's never been much high and far-sighted principle at work in the latino zone, lord knows there's little enough of it elsewhere, of course ... mining in much of this land has always meant that foreigners come with guns and steel, they enslave the locals and take great wealth away in the filthiest possible manner, leaving the land devastated and native culture destroyed ... perception of that is more in the background now, but it's still there Ever look at Cadre, jr? ... major placer project, finally going ahead it looks like, and i'm fairly content with the political risk involved [using 'fairly' in the 'really quite relative' sense] - Message 21037068 Hernando de Soto - reason.com

To: jrhana who wrote (34391)	2/20/2005 8:57:05 PM
From: Valuepro	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39344

jrhana, "Every Venezuealan that I know would disagree with everything you just said." O.k., but what does that matter against Chavez having stood for election/confirmation three times in the last 6 or so years, and been approved by an overwhelming majority each time? In fact, there was such outside interest in the last vote, Jimmy Carter was sent to investigate and he confirmed it. The hard facts are, 1) Venezuela is a democracy, 2) Chavez is the freely elected head of state, and 3) he has not even attempted to moved the country toward totalitarianism, nor socialism, despite claims to the contrary from those who benefited under former administrations. Here's something else. When Chavez was first elected, he had a new constitution drafted by highly regarded judges and diplomats, all of whom served other presidents. Chavez approved a provision calling for a new election once the constitution was approved by the national assembly. That was just a year, or so, after his first election. He won again. Further, the constitution included a provision that the president could be recalled after two years of a 6 year term, if a popular initiative met certain criteria. The opposition could not qualify the initiative in more than a few attempts, but under international pressure, Chavez agreed to stand for another vote of approval. It was not an election, per se, it was a popular vote to re confirm his public mandate. He won.