To: TimF who wrote (222931 ) 3/8/2005 5:21:10 PM From: tejek Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 1576645 These are serious allegations and yet no where in the article are they confirmed to have happened. An article like this is not a trial, the author can't call witnesses and prove beyond all reasonable doubt that someone said something or didn't say something. The article directly quotes Massad as saying : “The Jews are not a nation. The Jewish state is a racist state that does not have the right to exist.” That's not what I am disputing. BTW there are many people who share his sentiments. You and I don't agree with him but so what? When I was in school, there were several professors with whom I didn't agree. What's noteworthy is that our differences made me think. Just because his position is controversial does not mean he should be censored.That isn't just a claim that someone else alleged something. So what? Either it is known that Massad said this or the article is dishonest in a way that you can't tell without personal knowledge of the situation. Again, its not what I am disputing. In a country with free speech, his position is not so terrible. I am surprised at your reaction. The other "charge" is the allegation that "he refused to answer a question from an Israeli student unless that student told Massad how many Palestinians he had killed." Definitely not nice. Had the student been in the army yet? If not, its not likely he's killed any Palestinians yet. This is not reported as fact but as an allegation. The standard for publishing this alegation would be lower then the previous claim of fact but if there is any reason to think the allegation isn't true the article should state that reason, or better yet not repeat the claim. Do you know any good reason to think the claim is false? If you do then please state it and we can than agree that this is a big hole in the story. I am unclear why you are on this tangent. I made very clear in bold letters prefaced by the word EDIT what my objections were to the article."If you look closely at the two stories, you will note some substantial differences. One of the professors has been accused of actual unethical conduct in a classroom setting (refusing to permit a student to dissent from his teaching)." EDIT: Up above, it was "alleged".....now its become "actual". That's called stacking the deck. Not at all. It has not become "actual", its become "accused of actual", which is similar to "alleged". The reason for the word actual is to distinguish between charges which even if true are not unethical conduct in a classroom setting and charges which are unethical conduct in a classroom setting. Sorry, but it doesn't read that way.......its looks like a redundancy: the crimes are real and he's been accused formally. If you accuse me of wearing an ugly sweater in the classroom you are not accusing me of actual misconduct. If you accuse me of hitting a student over the head with a baseball bat for no good reason in the classroom than you are accusing me of actual misconduct. Even if I didn't hit anyone with a bat I would be "accused of actual misconduct". If instead of saying "accused of actual misconduct", the author had said "committed actual misconduct", than you would have a point. I believe you are misreading it.......the author appears very convinced the conduct is unethical.........that's confirmed by his POV throughout the article. And if I am wrong......then it makes the article even more misleading which I see as the fundamental flaw of many right wing publications.I find it very hard to believe that this DePaul professor was the model of professional classroom behavior but exhibited very heated and inappropriate behavior at the student booth. I doubt that the student booth incident was an aberration. I don't find it hard to believe that he maintained profesionalism in the classroom but got in to a heated argument somewhere else. In any case he is being attacked for the comments maid in the political argument outside the classroom. He is being hit with a charge of racism for comments that are not themselves racist. Yes, that's true but I would still like to talk to some students in his class. Certain people are prone to loosing their temper and acting inappropriately. Its rarely just a one time event. Its possible what the author claims but I would need more proof.......particularly with the author's rather biased POV. Excuse me, but I am sure the GOP bake sale had its defenders. Where are they now when the issue of Churchill is on the block? I don't consider the two to be eqivilent. Why not?In fact, with Massad, there had been no retribution in terms of students and their grades. Why does this article ignore that fact? Do you have another source of information about Massad's actions? That specifically confirms this. I think that issue is in dispute with Massad saying one thing and some of his detractors saying another. It was confirmed in a NY Times article......did I not post the link. Dang! I will never find it again. Let me try. Never mind, I did post the link.......here is the paragraph that makes that point."Determining the boundaries of this dispute is a slippery exercise. At root it is about some Jewish students and recent graduates, who could number several dozen, contending that in recent years they felt mocked and marginalized by pro-Palestinian professors. They have not, however, pointed to any grade retribution. Complaints of this sort have buzzed around campus for some time, but the issue flared into international news in late October, when the news media was shown a film, "Columbia Unbecoming," which had been made at the behest of unhappy Jewish students at Columbia by a pro-Israel group in Boston called the David Project." nytimes.com Do you agree with the article's final statement? - "It is time to put a stop to the obsession with victimization and offense. Speech codes and ideological uniformity lead inevitably to naked abuses of power and double standards. I agree with this part. A campus culture that for twenty-five years (at least) has used its intellectual energy to suppress dissent now finds itself under unprecedented national scrutiny, and the conduct that once spawned chuckles in the faculty lounge now leads to headlines and appearances on Fox News. I disagree with this part. I don't think Columbia has tried to repress dissent. In fact, I think its remarkable that they have three very pro Arab professors in a city that has a large Jewish population and a student population that as a significant Jewish presence. In addition, I saw how Fox News treated Mr. Massad when he was on. It was a witch hunt and frankly, given what was said on Fox I thought Mr. Massad's indiscretions were much worse than they really are. I've said before that I took a ME course last year from a Palestinian professor. During the class, he made very clear what his opinions were vs the facts. Some of the Jews in the class got upset at one point; so did some of the Arabs.......it seemed at times it was difficult to please anyone. Eventually, he let us have group discussions on the big issues. It was extremely valuable. He was an older than Massad and may have been more adept at handling controversial issues. What I do know is that it was one of the classes I enjoyed the most.Simply put, free speech needs room to breathe. So free Thomas Klocek from his suspension, and restrict any “investigation” of Massad to only those allegations involving actual violations of student academic freedom." I agree with this part. ted