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To: zonder who wrote (28647)	3/24/2005 12:52:50 PM
From: GraceZ	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 306849

you nor anyone else has the right to judge Grace on such a personal decision But judge us they do. If you have kids or don't have kids, if you work or stay home, if you try to juggle kids with work, if you are fat or thin, pretty or plain there is some group who is going to give you a hard time about whatever decisions you make and even those things that you have little control over. People project their own failures onto others, he failed to mate and somehow my not having children is somehow related to his problem. It isn't. I figured out long ago that I was always going to be in breach of someone's code of how women should be. That doesn't stop them from telling me how I should act, but it does stop me from listening. BTW if you do a SI search on the word "grace" you get a lot of religious discussions (as well as my rantings). It surprises me that given my name I haven't attracted more trolling Bible wavers.

To: zonder who wrote (28647)	3/24/2005 3:38:00 PM
From: shades	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 306849

I already stated I am with george carlin and joe pesci, not the magic man in the sky (sorry to whoever this offends) and that is on the record. For those of you that don't know, george carlin is not very supportive of bible thumpers and ridicules them often. I asked in the very first post that although not having children may be a great personal choice and one I have supported for many friends - is this a bad societal choice? I take issue with your statement that if the husband changed his mind and did not want them, he would get them anyway. I asked Grace how does the Bible suggest this be handled - I do not know the answer - I didn't read much of the bible. What if it was the reverse - he wanted them and you agreed at the start you did too - but then you changed your mind? See YOU have all the power, none for the man, not in the laws of the USA. For you see shades had a fiance and she was pregnant and because of her religious nut father and shades inability to give up george carlin and joe pesci and get saved and get religion - this man of "GOD" and life convinced his daughter to have an abortion and kill my child and I had no say in the matter. She wanted to still get married "after" she worked things out with religious nut daddy - but I no longer could love her after that senseless murder of my child. I have not judged Grace, I will say it again, in the original post I asked that although this may be great personal choice, is this the death knell for a nation? It seems other posters and the data believe this to be true - so what is required to convince women like my ex fiance not to murder children once already impregnated or convince non-breeders (as another poster from another group said) to breed? If the long term survival of our nation and culture or even planet is not to be a serious concern, stick the head in the sand and don't address it and take attention away from the real issues by shouting sexism and pigmen neanderthals. Personal attacks do not solve the problem.