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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Grainne who wrote (99417)	3/25/2005 7:01:21 PM
From: TimF	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

I think maybe we should go back and define what we are talking about. This is a tract from a libertarian organization that I am using to define core libertarian beliefs. As I have pointed out before, however, a lot of people who think libertarianism is cool or interesting don't understand how radical a belief system it is. So I will post my source material. Libertarianism is the general belief that people should be free to do what they wish if they don't harm others. There is however no requirement to follow any specific agenda of any specific libertarian group in order to be libertarian. More importantly there is no requirement that other principles and practical results be sacrificed to an extreme and dogmatic pursuit of one ideal ahead of everything else. There are hard core libertarians but you don't have to be a hard core believer in the most extreme version of libertarianism to be a libertarian any more than you have to be a hard core believe of extreme versions of all the ideas behind conservatism or liberalism in order to be a conservative or a liberal. In the real world people make pragmatic compromises and weigh different values, ideas, and opinions against each other. Re your comment that everyone must be selfish, I didn't really understand that. Rich liberals who want to pay more taxes and make sure that all Americans have health insurance and food, for example, are not as selfish as libertarians who do not want to feed the poor or educate them or make sure they have medical treatment. I am not really very functional at the moment, so perhaps I have missed your meaning. Not all liberals are rich and not all libertarians are rich. Poor liberals might benefit from the government money given out in the programs they support. I really don't think that necessarily makes them selfish. If the belief is true and not just something you put out to get something for yourself than I don't think you really have to consider it a case of selfishness, but this would also apply to libertarians (and conservatives, socialist, even fascists and communists). There are always people who push a particular political agenda for their own financial benefit, or to get power. They might be considered selfish but that doesn't make the idea itself or all of its followers selfish. A person who didn't really care much about personal freedom (or only cared about his own freedom) but supported libertarianism only for his own direct practical gain might be considered selfish. And I am not saying such people don't exist, but you can find people who support any one of the major ideologies for their own selfish reasons. It is not reasonable to say that because some people support an ideology for selfish reasons, that the ideology itself is corrupt or selfish, or that all or even most of the people who support it are corrupt or selfish. A number of libertarians support their ideology because they believe that freedom is a good thing and they want to maximize freedom. That isn't a selfish motive. Others are for libertarianism because they believe that the government messes things up and reduces economic growth. They think that if this drag on economic growth went away that in the long run even the poor would be better off than they are currently. They support not raising or eliminating the minimum wage because they think it prices low skilled people out of jobs (unless it is very low and then while it doesn't cause them to be unemployed it doesn't help them either because the market clearing rate is above the minimum). They are against farm prices supports and tariffs on clothing imports because these things make food and clothing more expensive for consumers, and have their greatest impact against the poor. Most of the libertarians who are against our drug laws are not drug users, they support the elimination of drug laws because they support freedom even if that freedom mostly benefits someone else, once again no selfishness is required. None of these ideas are based on selfish self-interest against the perceived common good. It might be that you believe their ideas would be against the common good but they don't see it that way. Even if you are right (and their ideas would have a very negative impact if enacted) than they are not selfish but rather incorrect in their assessment of the consequences of their ideas. Tim