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Pastimes : Prophecy -- HYPE or HOPE? -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: gregor who wrote (3224)4/12/2005 2:19:11 PM
From: alan w  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 5569
 
According to your philosophy if I am wrong then so what. I am telling people that there is an eternal hell and they will burn forever and forever in eternal agony. If they find out differently then they are in heaven instead in eternal bliss and peace.

Fortunately people don't rely on me for salvation. God is perfectly capable of handling that. He preordained Christ for that very purpose.

But if you are wrong people are thinking they will be forgiven and be in heaven and end up in burning hell for an eternity. Do you really want to stand before a just and righteous God if you are wrong after in effect sending people to eternal damnation if you are wrong.

That's what I'm talking about. I am not sending anyone anywhere. Christ has already taken care of that. Those verses are from the bible. I didn't make any of them up. Satan was a sinner/liar/murderer FROM THE BEGINNING.

Why don't you refute the verses I've presented instead of making vague generalizations. Scripturally tear my arguments apart. Tell me what Colossians 1:20 means. Tell me what will be the result of death BEING ABOLISHED. Tell me about Romans 5:18 & 19. Explain 1 Timothy 4:10 and 2:1-6. 1 John 2:2. 1 Corinthians 15:22. As in Adam all are dying, even so in Christ all will be vivified. Same all. It can't be different.

Romans 8:20
2 Corinthians 5:19
John 12:32
Phillipians 2:10&11 with 1 Corinthians 12:3
Romans 11:32
John 1:29

There are more. But let's start with these. When you can explain these without adding to or taking away from the plain words and convince me they don't mean what they say, then I'll agree with you.

grin!

alan w



To: gregor who wrote (3224)4/12/2005 7:06:10 PM
From: Emile Vidrine  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 5569
 
Matthew 25:31- 46---A Difficult Passage For Universalists...........

by Tom Logan


Matthew 25:31-46---remains a difficult challenge to the theology of Universalists:

Matt 25:31-34
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: (KJV)

Matt 25:41-46
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (KJV)

This passage clearly teaches that Christ's return will bring about the universal judgment and the separation of the righteous and the unrighteous.


The righteous sheep receive the kingdom of God and eternal life.
The unrighteous goats receive everlasting punishment and the fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

How do universalist's defend against this?

A number of ways have been suggested:


The first to be dealt with is the suggestion that the phrase the "fire prepared for the devil and his angel's" is not really literal fire for the devil and his angel's but figurative tribulation for the adversary and his messengers.
This argument attempts to hide behind the fact that the greek words translated devil (diabolos) and angel (angelos) are not always translated as such.

This is an incredibly weak argument which ignores the history of translation and context as well.

For example all the following versions make it clear the devil is meant:

KJV, NKJV, RSV, ASV, NIV, NAS, NAU, WEBSTER, RWEBSTER, LIT, LO YLT, WEY,
MKJV, KJII, BBE, DARBY, DOUAY, JPS, TLB, TEV, CEV, ISV, NET, NLT,JB, NJB, NAB
GW, NRSV, ALT, WEB, NEB, REB, PHILLIPS, NWT

However far more impressive is how the greek word diabolos is used in the bible.

For example it appears 38 times in the KJV


35 times the word is translated devil
2 times the word is translated false accusers
1 time slanderer

Here however it is important to note that 34 times a definite singular masculine form of the greek word is used.

Each of these 34 times, the resultant translation is The devil.

Not one of these times can it be shown that the passage refers to any but the chief adversary and accuser of the Christian - the devil.

Mathew 25:41 employs the same definite, singular, masculine greek form. To further cement the identification we are told the diabolos has angels and that the fire has been prepared for him. All should have no problem in recognizing that the devil's destiny is the lake of fire:

Rev 20:10
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (KJV)

Quite clearly according to Matthew; Christ at the judgment will send the goats to the fire.

John agrees:

Rev 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (KJV)

Another approach is to deny this refers to the final judgment.

However a comparison of scripture with scripture shows us the final judgment proceeds at Christ's return.

2 Pet 3:4-7
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (KJV)

Here, perdition (the lake of fire) transpires at the judgment upon Christ 's return:

II Th 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. (KJV)

Again, eternal destinies are decided at Christ's advent:

Jude 1:12-15
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (KJV)

Since there is but one final judgment all these passages speak of the same event:

Acts 17:31
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. (KJV)

The judgment at the last day:

John 12:48
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. (KJV)

Another approach is to deny that the following verse speaks of two co-eternal destinies:

Matt 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (KJV)

Some universalists take the position that the righteous do indeed enter into eternal life but the phrase merely speaks of age long destinies so that while the destiny of the righteous is truly eternal the destiny of the wicked is temporary chastisement or correction.

However, it is quite untenable to hold that the passage speaks of eternal destinies concerning the righteous but merely temporary destinies concerning the unrighteous.

Not only is such a reading rendered unlikely; for in this text, there is not the slightest indication or hint in the words of our Lord here that the punishment is not coeval with the life.

But such is contrary to the teaching of the bible.

Once it is acknowledged that the greek phrase: "zoen aioonion" does indeed refer to eternal life, it becomes impossible to deny eternal punishment. For the bible teaches the wicked do not receive eternal life (zoen aioonion).

John 3:36
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (KJV)

I Jn 5:11-12
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. (KJV)

The loss of a eternal reality is logically in itself of eternal duration. For this reason many universalist's deny both eternal life (zoen aioonion) and eternal punishment (kolasin aioonion) are of eternal duration and claim aionios is never capable of denoting eternal duration.

Such a claim flies in the face of greek writings both ancient and modern, greek lexicons and the vast majority of greek scholars who all admit the term aionios is capable of denoting eternal duration this would even include a number of universalists as well.

But far more importantly it flies in the face of scripture which portrays eternal life in terms of not dying:


John 6:47-58
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. (KJV)

John 3:15-16
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (KJV)

John 5:24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (KJV)

In all cases, dying or perishing are opposed to eternal life. If the life were not eternal then one would die or perish and the scriptures rendered false.
In the Jn 5:24 passage, eternal life assures one will not come into condemnation which is context is to experience death.

It is also opposed by the scriptural fact that eternal life is a supplier of incorruptibility and immortality.

Rom 2:7
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: (KJV)

Rom 2:7
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: (ASV)

The greek word here is aphtharsia:

” With “life” aphtharsia marks the future eternal life that Christ has brought
into a corruptible world (2 Tim. 1:10). As an eschatological blessing it will
be manifested with the parousia (1 Cor. 15:42, 50, 53-54). It is to be sought
here (Rom. 2:7) but remains hidden until Christ comes.
Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors, The Theological Dictionary of
the New Testament

23.127 aphtharsia, the state of not being subject to decay, leading to death
- ‘immortal, immortality.’egeiretai en aphtharsia
/ ‘it will be raised immortal’ 1 Cor 15.42. It is possible to translate this
clause as ‘it will be raised and will never again die.’
In rendering ‘immortality’ it may be necessary to employ an entire clause, for
example, ‘that people will not die.’ However, in 2 Tm 1.10 ‘life and
immortality’ may be best understood as a phrase in which ‘immortality’ is a
qualification of ‘life,’ and therefore one may translate ‘revealing immortal
life through the gospel’ or ‘revealing by means of the good news the life that
does not end.’
Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New
Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988,
1989."

The same gospel which brings eternal life also brings:

2 Tim 1:10
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: (KJV)

...the abolishment of death, life and immortality/incorruption. Incorruption speaks of not experiencing the corruption which is through death.

Finally we see the unending kingdom reign which is Christ's expressed in terms of aions:

Luke 1:33
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. (KJV)

Luke 1:33
33 and he shall reign over the house of Jacob to the ages; and of his reign there shall be no end.' (Young's literal translation)

The parallelism of both halves of the verse shows us the ages of Christ's reign have no end.

Vincent tells us:

Eternity is made up of ages, and ages of generations.
(from Vincent's Word Studies of the New Testament)

apparently Luke agrees!



To: gregor who wrote (3224)4/12/2005 7:09:06 PM
From: Emile Vidrine  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 5569
 
Some Fundamentalists Ache for Armageddon

The "Religious Right" and Middle East War
By Allan C. Brownfeld

By no means is this a criticism against all fundamentalist Christians. However, it’s time to bring out into the open one of the largest political supports for Israeli radicals and debate how some religious leaders, particularly the Reverends Falwell and Robertson, push support for the most militant, settler lobbyists in Israel and against the Israeli peace groups such as led by the murdered Yitzak Rabin. Many fundamentalist leaders have crossed the line from forecasting Armageddon to trying to bring it about. Their alliance with the Zionist radicals is very two sided, each thinks it is using the other for its greater benefit.

For most of the Religious Right, foreign affairs just don’t loom as major considerations, so the good will of many well meaning Americans is used to support the most fanatic Zionists in Israel and policies of bombing and starvation in Iraq. That’s why conservatives have let their foreign policy by taken over by the Beltway crowd that sees world empire as just another "big government" program for prestige, power and turf building.

The profound Christian philosopher and libertarian activist, Dr. Leonard Liggio, once remarked how he was always surprised how Americans who had lived in the 3rd World nearly all came to the same conclusions about the best role for America on most issues. The fact is that most Americans, especially among conservative leaders, have very little knowledge of 3rd world (and most foreign) nations. (Ed)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The ties between Christian fundamentalism in the United States and Jewish fundamentalism in Israel are growing rapidly, with potentially serious consequences for U.S.-Middle East policy and for the people of that troubled region.

In 1978, Jerry Falwell traveled to Israel on a trip sponsored and paid for by the Israeli government. In 1979, the Israelis extended another free trip, during a period when Prime Minister Menachem Begin was in a rush to build Jewish settlements throughout the West Bank. The Rev. Falwell traveled the road toward the Palestinian town of Nablus and turned off the highway and stood at a cluster of prefabricated houses built by Jewish settlers. At that time, Falwell declared that God was kind to America only because "America has been kind to the Jews."

At a gala dinner in New York in 1980, Prime Minister Begin bestowed upon Falwell a medal named for Vladimir Jobotinsky, the right-wing Zionist leader. In 1981, when Israel bombed the nuclear reactor in Iraq, Begin immediately called Jerry Falwell for support.

Few Americans understood the real reasons for the alliance between Christian fundamentalism and the most extreme segments of Israel political life. In an important new book, "Prophecy and Politics" by Grace Halsell (Lawrence Hill and Co.). She worked as a White House speechwriter during the administration of Lyndon Johnson and explores this growing relationship.

During two of Jerry Falwell’s Holy Land tours, the author interviewed fundamentalist members of the Moral Majority, all of whom believed that the biblical prophecy of fighting World War III must be fulfilled preparatory of the Second Coming of Christ.

The strain of fundamentalism known as "dispensationalism," Halsell writes, argues that the world will soon be destroyed: "God knows it will happen. He knew it from the beginning. But, God kept His plan secret from all the billions of people who lived before us. But now … He has revealed the plan … we must move through seven time periods, or dispensations – one of which includes the terrible battle of Armageddon, where new and totally destructive nuclear weapons will be unleashed and blood will flow like mighty rivers … ."

Dispensationalism spread throughout the U.S. largely through the efforts of Cyrus Ingerson Scofield, born in 1843. His belief system was not original with him but goes back to John Nelson Darby, a 19th-century Irishman and one-time priest in the Church of England.

On one occasion, Scofield reminded his audience that year after year he had sounded the same warning: our world will end "in disaster, in ruin, in the great, final world-catastrophe." But, he said, born-again Christians should welcome such a catastrophe because once the final battle began, Christ will lift them up into the clouds.

Grace Halsell became a participant in two Jerry Falwell-sponsored journeys to Israel where she mingled with many dispensationalists. One of them, Owen, explained his belief system, which entailed the need to destroy Jerusalem’s most hold Islamic shrine, and the necessity of waging a nuclear Armegeddon to destroy the world.

Christian fundamentalists who donate generously to Jewish terrorism include oil and gas tycoon Terry Reisenhoover, a frequent White House visitor, Mission to America Chairman Dr. Hilton Sutton and Dr. James DeLoach, pastor of Houston’s Second Baptist Church who visited me … and boasted that he and others had formed a Jerusalem Temple Foundation specifically to aid those intent on destroying the mosque and building a temple.

Dr. John Walvoord, who teaches at Southwestern School of Bible in Dallas, explained the dispensationalist beliefs to Halsell: "God does not look on all of His children the same way. He sees us divided into categories, the Jews and the Gentiles. God has one plan, an earthly plan, for the Jews. And He has a second plan, a heavenly plan, for the born-again Christians. The other peoples of the world – Muslims, Buddhists, and those of other faiths as well as those Christians not born again – do not concern Him. As for destroying planet earth, we can do nothing. Peace, for us, is not in God’s book … ."

At a meeting of Christian Zionists in Basel, Switzerland, the group adopted resolutions calling for all Jews living outside of Israel to leave the countries where they are now residing and move to the Jewish State. The Christians also urged Israel to annex the West Bank. When an Israeli in the audience urged more moderate language, poionting out that an Israeli poll showed that one-third of Israelis would be willing to trade territory seized in 1967 for peace with the Palestinians, one of the Christian leaders, van der Hoeven of Holland, replied, "We don’t care what the Israelis vote! We care what God says! And God gave that land to the Jews!"

The discussion in this book of the alliance between Christian and Jewish fundamentalists – whose theological differences have been shelved for the political goal of strengthening Israel – is instructive, Jews in Israel and the U.S., it seems, do not realize that the Christian fundamentalists urge such a policy because they believe it will usher in the Battle of Armageddon and the end of the world – not because they are concerned with Israel’s long-run security.

The Orange County Register, May 19, 1987 Mr. Brownfeld is Chairman of the American Council for Judaism www.ACJNA.org

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In CHRISTIANITY TODAY (letters) Bob Mize of Colorado Springs wrote:--

Two things have concerned me about dispensationalism in the modern American church: 1) It has become such a "fad" to believe in one form or another of it that, to oppose it, places one in a situation similar to our place as nonevolutionists in the scientific world. There are many of us who are stong believers who do not jump on the dispensationalist bandwagon. (2) Evangelical leaders, as Weber points out, are "making" events in the Middle East conform to their interpretation of Israel, the kindom, aschatology, and so on. This is an alarming idea, and portends even worse things than the historical tension between the Arab and Israeli people. Thank you for including Dr. Weber's article--to many, an unpopular sketch of these matters.

.