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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Maurice Winn who wrote (161367)	5/4/2005 2:10:47 AM
From: marcos	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

That quote may or may not be fairly edited, Herzl may have been in a bleak mood, but it doesn't sound typical imho, he was not generally as bloody-minded as some who come along later ... to my knowledge there was from him no promotion of ethnic cleansing ... because he was well aware that Palestine was not 'a land without people', he tried to interest other zionists in the colonial office's offer of part of British East Africa, but they weren't having any, they wanted the place mentioned in the book where it said distant ancestors stayed once upon a time, and never mind that it was occupied by other descendants Yes, looks like that will be a typo, should be '48 not '18 ... but the major change in tone seems to have happened between the fall of 1917 when Allenby arrives, and the end of 1919 which had Versailles et al ... the foreign office in its infinite wisdom promised arabs self-determination for helping defeat the ottomans, then turned around and sort-of maybe perhaps in a way gave their land away to somebody else, but not really, with this carefully weasel-worded declaration to Rothschild - 'His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.' ... 'it being clearly understood' - riiight-o ... well the natives pretty clearly understood that when zionists started ballyhooing this as carte blanche and sending in waves of immigrants, there was trouble coming ... this is the context in which the famous mufti came to power, the terrorist gangs like Haganah start up, and the whole place deteriorates ... so this and not 1948 is the watershed time, imho, because it is when it gets ugly, before this it was not so much, there was considerable cooperation between early zionists and indigenous The only answer for this land is Menschenstaat, a state where nobody gets excluded on the basis of religion ... it was always like that, since Saladin beat back the crusaders, not long after that a califa invited in a community of jews, that's how there was a jewish presence in Jerusalem, there were christians, druze, number of other sects ... all of them quite strongly anti-zionist, btw

To: Maurice Winn who wrote (161367)	5/4/2005 2:40:17 AM
From: Nadine Carroll	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

What the heck were they thinking to go for a religious waco state right in the middle of a swarm of mindless Islamo-waco murderous jihadis? Well they had tried assimilating in Europe, and that didn't work out so well. Things were not so hot in the Arab world either. The glories of Andalusia ended almost 1000 years ago. I suppose about half of Jewish Israelis were born there. Actually, 1948 to now is nearly 60 years, so I suppose it's much more than half. I suppose about 70% were born there. Google would know. I think about 1/3 of Israelis were native born in 1948, and about 2/3 are native born today. But there it is. Swarms of people born in Israel and "Palestine" and they can't go back where they came from because they are where they came from. Ah, what's the matter with you? How many times has marcos told you that only the Arabs are "indigenous" and have a right to live there, no matter where they were born (it's all Arab land, so Arabs have a right to move), while Jews are all "European colonizers" even if they are native born for generations from ancestors who never were in Europe? Get with the program, man! No, the Israelis must immediately declare the 'menschenstaat' that doesn't discriminate by religion, a requirement not requested of all the neighbors, every single one of which discriminates heavily against non-Muslims, making them second class, forbidding them to worship, or excluding them entirely. How many Jewish citizens are there in Jordan or Saudi Arabia? Ans: 0. How many Arab citizens in Israel? Ans 1.3 million. Sound a little lopsided? But that's okay, see, because they're "indigenous" and they have a right to their indigenous customs, like discrimination by religion.