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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Maurice Winn who wrote (163651)	6/5/2005 1:19:25 AM
From: geode00	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 281500

Why do you equate a draft with slavery? Do you also equate requiring children to get an education with slavery? Do you equate paying income taxes as slavery? Do you equate traffic laws as slavery? There are some functions of the organization that everyone gets to contribute to whether or not we like it. One of those is the defense of the country. Those who don't believe in that can prove that they have been and still are conscientious objectors. If you want perfect freedom: GET OFF THE GRID. There are many places in the world that you can probably live as a hunter gatherer doing as you like all day long. As a consequence, though, you don't get the benefits of the organization. You don't get potable water, sidewalks and roads, bridges and phone service, safe food and 911. If you're going to be a libertarian then BE ONE FOR REAL. Go to the hinterlands of Afghanistan where it's Darwin at the point of a gun. There are apparently no laws in about 1/3rd of that country so you can do as you like there as well. What in the world do supply and demand have to do with freedom? If there were a sudden free for all in the world we would quickly dissolve into tyranny. THAT is the reality of the world we live in and of the human species. Once someone with a little more testosterone than his neighbors gets a little power, he gets a little bit more and then more and on it goes... The natural state of human society IS NOT DEMOCRACY. In order to have individual freedom, we must have laws that prevent you from punching me in the face for no good reason. Does the existence of that law mean that you are enslaved?

To: Maurice Winn who wrote (163651)	6/5/2005 12:04:51 PM
From: Keith Feral	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

Indeed, freedom is very limited to the perception that all people share the same rights. In reality, we all share the same responsibilities. We have to find jobs, pay bills, find medical benefits and avoid bankruptcy. We do not have the right to fail in this respect or we hit rock bottom. There are so many people in any country that are frustrated by the daily challenge of keeping their shit together. The challenge gets greater as you get older. Whoever said that things will get easier are out of their mind. The people in the ME may not like the concept of being held accountable for their medieval social order. However, their external involvement in foreign affairs by declaring jihad against the Jews and Christians have achieved the exact opposite of their intention. They will never be left alone again. They will be held accountable for their actions inside and outside of the ME. One of the biggest lessons I learned from 911 was that freedom is completely limited in scope. A person can never be free to act without recourse of the people around him. Islamic clerics have tried to encourage a course of unusual independence by telling their believers to carry out acts of holy murder or jihad. This religious treachery is a form of anarchy. The lack of rule in anarchy depends upon the principles of freedom, but with no upside to human accountability. Not a good way to hope for the future. Ironically, all religions have this wonderful vision of cooperation and love. However, they also have a very negative message for man. Love or perish. This passage from Rumi is a great insight into the haunting aspect of all religion and order. (Rumi: Gazing at the Beloved, Will Johnson) "If you don't have a beloved, Why don't you go out and search for one? If you've reached the beloved, Why don't you rejoice and sing praises? O, one who has reached maturity, choose another mature one. Stay next to him. Go together to the land of timelessness and spacelessness. To avoid that is a big mistake." Why do all religious leaders and political leaders feel it is their position to give out advise? This passage is not encouragement. It condemns people for not following the beloved. This is kind of where I think that a lot of people get turned off by religion or politics. Every religious message is filled with this assumption that there are both positive and negative energy or good and evil. All Rumi had to do was encourage people to rejoice the beloved. At the point that he criticizes anyone for NOT finding the beloved, he becomes a oppressor out to maximize his following to his vision and ego. He has to find a cause so great as to justify all of his own sacrifice. Why does he have to sacrifice so much to convey such a simple and elegant message of hope? It's the religious paradox of order. The biggest conundrum for all peace and hope is how to unify people without oppressing them.