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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Grainne who wrote (105664)	6/5/2005 11:27:40 PM
From: The Philosopher	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

The thing is, though, I don't think I could really be close friends in 3D with a conservative because our values are so different. I find that very, very sad. Ionesco (I think it was) posted an article deploring the increasing polarization of the country. Quite frankly, if I can say this without your feeling attacked, which is not my intent, I think your attitude pretty clearly reflects the reasons for that polarization and is part of the problem, not the solution. How can you ever truly understand conservatives -- not merely stereotype them, but UNDERSTAND them -- unless you get to know them well as PERSONS, not simply as political ideas? Is it really, to go back to an early discussion, in your opinion humane and compassionate to say you will never be close friends with a person if they don't hold your political views? Suppose somebody here were to say "I don't think I could really be close friends in 3D with a [Jew, black, Hispanic, Muslim] because our values are so different." Wouldn't you find that statement unfortunate? Maybe you should put a new bumper sticker on your car: "Have you hugged at least one Liberal and at least one Conservative today?"

To: Grainne who wrote (105664)	6/6/2005 1:25:21 PM
From: Oral Roberts	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

This is called surrounding yourself with like minded people who all read the same drivel you do. Your only comfortable hearing your views parroted by your like minded friends and you fear anything that doesn't follow that party line. It explains your extremely one sided and bizarre view IMO of your country to be quite honest. It explains a lot in fact. Your views to be honest are extreme. They are not even remotely close to mainstream or the center, but you may not realize that because your insulated. Conversely I have many friends that are liberal. I am married to one of them who was raised by a whole gaggle of them. I am surrounded at all times by differing views. Some I don't agree with, some I do. I don't find it harmful at all. You should give it a try.

To: Grainne who wrote (105664)	6/6/2005 2:36:32 PM
From: Alan Smithee	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 108807

The thing is, though, I don't think I could really be close friends in 3D with a conservative because our values are so different. I have never had any Republican friends or family members, ever, that I know of. I have had friends at work who don't volunteer any political views who could possibly have been Republican, and I have online friends of several persuasions. Being fairly political, and enjoying typically liberal pursuits, I don't think I would really have enough in common with a 3D conservative friend to keep a friendship going, unless the other person in it was not interested in talking about stuff like that at all, and we had another really compelling interest in common. Therein lies the problem. You constantly post suggesting that others should read the articles you come up with, saying we should keep an open mind and be willing to consider other points of view. Yet, in the post that I'm replying to, you make it clear you are not interested in meeting others with different POV's and learning from them. You'd rather surround yourself with like-minded people and not expose yourself to different beliefs and points of view. After 15 years in the Seattle area, I moved to a relatively conservative community, yet I don't closet myself and socialize only with people who have a similar political POV to mine. Indeed, I have many liberal friends. I also come from a very liberal family, and my brother-in-law and his wife are about as liberal as they come. Yet we all manage to find common ground and get along and learn from each other. Your post was a response to a post from The Philosopher, which noted that in his community, he regularly rubs shoulders with people of all political persuasions, conservative, liberal, centrist. That's the way it is in the majority of this country - people with different views coming together to help each other and their communities. Fact is, it's impossible not to do that in a small community. IMO, that's what makes America great, that people of different points of view can come together to do good for their communities. As I read your post I recalled the comment that was attributed to film critic Pauline Kael after Ronald Reagan was first elected, "I don't understand how he could be elected, I don't know anyone who voted for him. [paraphrased]. She was surprised because she refused to meet and know anyone who had political beliefs different from those she held. Hence, she was mystified at how it could be that she was out of step with a significant majority of the country, instead of the other way around. If one elects to live in a bubble, surrounded only by people who share similar views, it is only reasonable to expect that one will become increasingly out of touch with the rest of the population. It is my impression there is a large contingent of people like this in the Democratic party, and that is one reason, IMO, why that political party is destined to end up further marginalized and even more in the minority.

To: Grainne who wrote (105664)	6/6/2005 9:38:46 PM
From: epicure	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 108807

FWIW Grainne I think people missed the "close friends" part of what you wrote. When I think about the people I really love, and trust, part of the love and trust is predicated upon a shared belief system, and shared values. I can't imagine loving anyone deeply (except my children, and that's biological and not choice) who did not share my core values. I can imagine caring about certain aspects of people, and "putting up" with certain attitudes, in people who were not close friends, or in people who are family (who you do not choose). But the people you really decide to share your life with, the people with whom you share your dreams and your fears, should be people (imo) whom you trust absolutely- or as absolutely as it is possible to trust. I don't see how you could trust people who had values so different from your own, that they invisioned a completely different way of living in the world. It's hard to trust people who look at the world in the "wrong" way. If they can't figure out how to look at the world the way I do, how could they ever see me the way I want to be seen? And isn't love and friendship about being seen for who we think we are? I don't think we cut ourselves off from people who are different, but I certainly can't see sharing the essence of who we are with people whose values are anathema- it seems like a set up for grief and anger and eventual recriminations. It doesn't make them bad people, or us bad people, it just makes us people who do not share a common foundation. Where there is no commonality, I do not think there can be real trust, and real sharing, and real love. I think you can have something like love- but it would always be qualified, and that would be a sad substitute for the real thing.