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To: Raymond Duray who wrote (65624)	6/28/2005 11:16:30 PM
From: energyplay	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74559

Hi Ray - I'll give you a few, mostly politicians - John Edwards, Democratic VP Candidate Born poor, worked his way up as a trial lawyer. Charles Rangel, Democratic Representative from New York. Jack Gifford, Maxim Semiconductor Larry Ellison, Oracle There aren't many. Most successful people either have connections and help, or learn to cultivate them to get help. Lots of people do both, and work every legitimate oportunity that comes their way, or even gets close by. Wheather you view cultivating connections as being friendly, networking, or 'sucking up' depends on your industry and your personal orientation. Some people have likeable personalites, and make friends very easily - Bill Clinton being the most recent example. Ronald Reagan evidently had that, as he was elected president of the screen actors guild. Of course with Clinton, much of the credit goes to Hillary, so he won't be on the 'self-made' list, no matter how many other people he has made....

To: Raymond Duray who wrote (65624)	6/29/2005 5:30:10 AM
From: Maurice Winn	Respond to of 74559

Ray, we don't have a totally desert island existence, but "self made man" doesn't mean we self-create from zero. It means we individually have minds which we use to create a great deal of our circumstances within the limits that prosaic reality allows. A self made man creates value for other people to such an extent that they become fully independent and can buy what they need without further effort. Of course we all start out with greater or lesser assets from those who have gone before. Those of us in wealthy countries benefit from a LOT of previous effort. Those of us in squalid countries suffer the consequences of hopeless people running the show previously. Some people are bludgers on others, being tax collectors, government agents, frauds, thieves, or other spivs on the productive. They are NOT self-made people. Mqurice

To: Raymond Duray who wrote (65624)	6/29/2005 1:33:22 PM
From: y2kate	Read Replies (4) \| Respond to of 74559

I would add Bono from the Irish rock group U2, now a successful advocate for fair trade and the elimination of Third world debt, poverty, and AIDS in Africa. He grew up in Dublin where his father was a postal employee; his mother died when he was young. His advantages were chiefly spiritual, in that he made a powerful connection to Christianity at a young age. His artistic, commercial, and spiritual aspirations have always moved forward in tandem. He is probably the only "self made man" that will end up winning a Nobel Peace Prize.