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Politics : Should God be replaced? -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Greg or e who wrote (21200)	7/14/2005 12:49:29 AM
From: Solon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 28931

”That's not an answer it's an irrelevant evasion of the question” No. It is a perfectly clear answer. The amount of genetic damage that an individual mother is willing to accept (on the advice of her doctor) is a medical decision and a values judgment that may only be made by the woman consulting her doctor. If I were a doctor I could give you some parameters that they use as guidelines to recommend abortion as a compassionate act. But It would be irresponsible for me to tread on their territory. It must be horrible for a prospective mother who has carried a wanted fetus for several months to find out that it will be born with a life expectancy of days or months—and a far worse life than the fetus had in the womb. Still..there are woman who will choose to accept that because of their religion or for any number of reasons. ”It was you that said partial birth infanticide was justified” I said NOTHING about infanticide. You do not know what it means, so I will help you (as always): INFANTICIDE: “The act of killing an infant.” (from any dictionary). INFANT: “1. A child in the earliest period of life, especially before he or she can walk. 2. Law A person under the legal age of majority; a minor. And you have been questioned and have made it clear that you make no distinction between the zygote and the fetus in terms of rights or status. Development, size, and mind do not bear on the question, you have averred. So you would obviously call the aborting of a fertilized egg (smaller than a pencil dot)…INFANTICIDE. And by misusing words and concepts you would not be arguing—you would be RANTING. Here is some information for you as to guidelines for working with the trauma of parents who discover a terrible abnormality: WHEN A FETUS WITH AN ABNORMALITY IS DIAGNOSED "The Initial Diagnosis of an Abnormality The diagnosis of a fetus with an abnormality is very often a stressful occasion. In most cases it is unexpected and comes a great shock. There are obvious and real reasons why this is the case. The action taken on such an occasion by hospital and medical staff is crucial in assisting the parents in coping with, and adjusting to, this situation. Some patients will have had counselling prior to a procedure such as CVS or Amniocentesis, and may have considered the possibility of an abnormality. Most will not have. Many may not have thought it would happen to them. This protocol outlines a procedure for telling parents that their fetus has an abnormality, the basic support of the woman and partner, allowing them to make the appropriate choices about continuing or terminating the pregnancy and linking them other appropriate resources. People will react to the diagnosis of an abnormality in many ways, including differences because of ethnic or cultural background. Hospital and medical staff need to remain sensitive and non-judgemental and need to recognise and support parents' right to: • care and support • information immediately or as it emerges regarding the fetus's condition • all the information relating to their options, alternatives and choices • be recognised as equal partners in all decision making processes regarding their baby. • have their emotional reactions acknowledged and accepted.This work is very stressful, and staff support and consultation is essential. Staff/doctors need to be aware that their initial reaction with/without words will have an important and lasting impact. The Initial Interview The initial interview should be entered in the knowledge that little of the detail of what is said will be remembered, but the way that it is said will probably never be forgotten. Much of the success of the first interview does not lie in the volume of factual information imparted, but in the climate which establishes a sound basis for future sessions. Parents will react in different ways - including differences caused by socioeconomic, cultural or ethnic factors. Hospital and medical staff and persons offering support need to ascertain and respect the social and religious values and culture of the parents. The following points have been identified as a framework for how parents should be told of the diagnosis of their baby’s abnormality. 1. The parents should be seen by two health professionals, one of whom (often an Obstetrician or genetic counsellor) would give the factual information. The other worker (experienced nurse or social worker) would be available to work with the parents towards acceptance of this information. 2. The parents should be informed as soon as possible. 3. Parents should be seen together in a private place with no extraneous people present (e.g. students) and where they are unlikely to be disturbed. It is important that this is separate from the place of diagnosis. 4. If English is not the first language, ideally an interpreter should be present when the parents are seen. 5. The diagnosis or information should be straightforward and clearly explained. The information, including confirmation of the condition, should be presented, as a balanced viewpoint rather than a catalogue of the potential problems. There needs to be the opportunity to ask questions. 6. It is essential to acknowledge any doubts the parents may have. Avoidance of doubts will maximise the parents' may be anxiety, not reduce it. 7. It is important to acknowledge to the family any doubts, concerns or lack of information that doctors or hospital staff may have, and the next step needs to be explained clearly. The "next" step may mean next few minutes or next day. 8. Acknowledgement of doctors' doubts, fears etc. may help the family accept the equality of the partnership. This would include straightforward information, positives as well as negatives, and the "next" step. 9. Explaining what will happen next can show the parents that they are not alone, that there are people who have more information or can provide assistance. 10. Further information from other professionals or Community Resources should be given. It may be appropriate to arrange for further consultations (eg. Genetic or Surgical) and procedures such as Amniocentesis, to obtain further information. 11. Available written material should be provided. 12. Time should be arranged later when the main information provider can further clarify any matters and answer questions. 13. Information must be given about implications for future pregnancies During the Next Few visits at the Hospital 1. The senior nursing and medical staff need to ensure a common understanding of the situation by all people having contact with the family. Confidentiality should be maintained. Conflicting messages will cause confusion for parents and staff. Senior staff should ensure that all persons in contact with the family have clear guidelines on the management of the case. 2. The Hospital Social Worker should be available to work with the family, appropriate hospital staff and community team members.It is very important to ensure there is communication between the family and the workers. 3. The parents need access to information, support and counselling to assist them in making decisions. This help should include information about resources (e.g. financial, supportive, and medical) and referral to specialist help as needed. Services for people with disabilities should become involved according to the family's needs and expressed wishes. The family needs to feel secure in the knowledge that there are services and other parents to support them. 4. Although the parents should have access to information about their baby, workers need to be aware of the family's needs and feelings, and not bombard them with too much information. Families need accurate answers to questions as they come up - even if they have already been given the information before. At times of stress it is very hard to absorb painful information, so it may need repeating a number of times. Some people may find it difficult to accept the reality of what has happened. While contact information about parent groups can be provided, it needs to be left to the parents to decide if and when to make contact. 5. Workers must recognise that the parents may be unable to support each other at this time. Families need emotional recognition and help first prior to advice and information in a neutral manner. Making the decision to Terminate This is an emotional and anxious experience for women and their partners. Many have a sense of sadness, relief and anger or other complex feeling both before and after the termination. Prior to and Following Discharge If the family does not wish immediate contact with Social Workers, parents can be provided with clear written information in their own language, if possible, with contact addresses and telephone numbers. Information to families needs to be clearly given. Many families experience frustration as they are unaware of services. Written information where possible should be given to families. CONCLUSION These general principles for counselling parents of a fetus with an identified abnormality are put forward in order to help those who are in a position to counsel the families and perhaps lessen the stress of the event for them by outlining positive options for the future." ”It's legal and that's all that matters to you” No. That is not ALL that matters to me. I have said repeatedly that without a rational basis for irrevocable human rights…we have nothing and can aspire to nothing. Thus, a person has a right to what is in their body. You don’t want anyone taking your kidney out without your permission. And women don’t want to be forced to either birth a child or to NOT birth a child. It works both ways and an infinite number of ways when you discard the right to your own life and your own body. ”A child in the mothers arms has no more ability to "pursue" rights than a child in the womb” As I have said: rights and competencies are two different things. Myriad people never enjoy happiness. Nevertheless, it is their RIGHT to pursue it—and society protects that RIGHT. ”Apparently not.” I disagree with you totally on that point. It is very clear to me that humans have never been more compassionate or respectful of rights—in spite the fact that most of humanity live more like animals than like human beings.

To: Greg or e who wrote (21200)	7/14/2005 12:56:03 AM
From: Solon	Respond to of 28931

”Any Judge that classifies some Humans as non persons so that they may be legally killed for the sake of convenience is not just a moron they are morally bankrupt.” Yes…your Sunday School teacher has all the morals--provided she/he is a Christian. And you surely can’t call him/her a moron! A judge who has spent years studying the intricacies of human rights, however, IS a “moron”--if she/he does not let the Aztecs or the Mayans or the Jews or the Christians dictate the shoulds and the oughts. So the judge is a moron and you are his/her better? You don’t say “YOUR HONOR” when you address the judge?? Do you squeak out…”YOUR MORON”?? Do you call the Queen "Your Royal IDIOT"??