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Strategies & Market Trends : The Epic American Credit and Bond Bubble Laboratory -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Umunhum who wrote (36567)7/22/2005 1:35:44 AM
From: mishedlo  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 110194
 
Mish <If you at all think this is plausible, then tell me why the US will be any different.>

UH: Because the US is borrowing over 70% of the worlds savings and this figure is growing. This is the elephant in the room that you are completely ignoring.

Mish: Not at all. What can not be sustained won't be. Therefore the US will stop borrowing 70% of the word's savings, regardless of what interest rates do. The US will not save at 0% regardless of what rates do, and US houses will eventually decline (assuming no massive increase in wages) regardless of what interest rates do. The elephant is indeed in the room. We disagree as to what it will take before something happens. The NAZ crashed pretty much on it own accord in 2000 by exhaustion. Housing will likely do the same, and when it does we will no longer be consuming 70% of the world's savings. It's as simple as that. Money and credit will be destroyed big time along with future demand.
======================================

Mish:<So we take in less tax revenue. Will it matter?
To who?>

UH:I cannot believe you don’t think this is an issue. If the US is taking in less tax revenue, then more money must be borrowed – which causes interest rates to escalate.

Mish: It is an issue in a relative sense. If spending drops more, and more mal-investments are wiped out, and US savings rates go up, and govt expenditures drop, declining tax revenue will not matter ON BALANCE. In a vacuum tax revenue matters. Taking everything into consideration it is meaningless to talk about in isolation. That was what I meant but did not say. Tax reevenues may drop but if spending falls off the cliff, and savings rates goes up, declining revenues will not matter.
=======================================================
UH: You are assuming a housing bust. We could also have a dollar bust or a combination of the two.

Mish: Yes I am assuming a housing bust. A US$ bust even IF it happened (doubtful IMO as every other central bank will be printing alongside us) might be meaningless in comparison. The US $ needs something to drop against. Tell me what. The Euro, the Yen, the pound? They all suck IMO. Faber has said the same thing BTW.
======================================================

MISh:<2) consumer demand falling off the cliff like the UK>

UH: Again, this is the elephant in the room and you are acting as if it isn’t there. If the consumer stops spending, then there is no money being recycled to buy US treasuries. And yet interest rates drop? It doesn’t make sense.

MISH: You are hopelessly wrong on this one. If there is no demand for money, and/or lenders unwilling to lend, interest rates drop. Look at the UK. The first of many rate cuts are coming in spite of huge govt spending and falling consumer spending and falling tax revenues. You are telling me that something can not happen that is currently happening. Please open your eyes.
========================================================

MISH:<4) Tariffs are a wild card and consumer spending will drop like a rock if Congress acts like that>

UH: The tariff issue is the desire of the government to devalue the dollar but we can’t as long as China and a few other countries have their currency pegged to the dollar. The US is basically saying we want to devalue our currency and you’re not letting us. Somehow in your twisted logic, interest rates are going to decline even though the dollar is being devalued.

MISH: Read my previous answer. Are interest rates about to drop in the UK or not? Is the pound falling or not? So once again your logic is twisted not mine. You are telling me flat out something can not happen that is currently happening in the UK.
==================================================

Mish: <5) No doubt the govt will print but you can take consumers shopping but you can not force them to buy. Recent experience suggests they will keep buying. BUT.... Recent experiences must take into consideration cash out refis and rising home prices. I think the party is over (just like in the UK) once housing slumps.>

UH:I believe if you double everyone’s credit line, their spending will go up.

Mish: You assume two things, both are not likely to be true. Credit lines will go up, spending will go up if the first happens. Right now, credit card companies are raising payments. Consumer credit is dropping right now and as best as I can tell no one has dropped credit lines. I would hazard a guess that spending lines have been increasing over the past few years in Japan. Thus you are starting with poor assumptions that have been disproven in actual practice.
=======================================================

Mish: <6) Japan printed like mad and it did them no good. Govt spending went up, tax revenues went down (I presume since Japan went from being a huge creditor to being a huge debtor) while interest rates in Japan fell to 0%.>

UH: The Japanese are savers; Americans are spenders. Comparing the two is like believing that a giraffe will enjoy hamburger because a lion did. Plus again you are ignoring the fact that the US is absorbing over 70% of the world’s savings and Japan was a net lender.

Mish: Another poor misintrepretation on your part. Please bear in mind the US was once the worlds largest creditor nation. Spending every dime is a recent phenomenon. You make the classic mistake of projecting current events into the future. Step back in time to when the US was a creditor nation. Look how hopelessly silly you would look projecting that into the future (as in NOW). The US savings rate is now zero. Do you expect it to rise or fall from here? I expect it to rise regardless if what interest rates do. Thus you have not only made poor assumptions, you have projected them into the future.
=====================================================

Mish: <Thus I conclude that while you have taken a different angle, it is just another dead end as to producing higher interest rates.>

UH: I conclude the exact opposite and my money is where my mouth is as I am short 20 TYU5.

Mish: Good for you. You put your money where your mouth is.
You got lucky today on China repeg. I will take a few of those off your hands if interest rates rise some more.
=========================================

UH: The bottom line is that the bottleneck that is going to crunch the economy is not credit creation. There is no limit to the amount of credit that can be created. Especially when a country devalues it's currency which is exactly what the US wants to do. The bottleneck is you can only borrow 100% of the world's savings and our current trajectory has us on a path to do this. Peak Oil could cause the dollar to tank and interest rates to skyrocket too as everyone holding treasuries tries to cash them in for energy.

Mish: what is going to destroy debt and the housing bubble and the credit bubble is indeed not credit creation. It will be the UNWINDING of that credit creation that will do it. Peak oil is irrelevant at best, deflationary at worst (unless wages and jobs go up in response to rising oil). If prices of cars have not gone up and prices of manufactured goods have not gone up with oil rising from $25 to $60 and copper from .80 to $1.60 etc etc etc, you are grasping at straws to assume another $10 or $20 or $80 in oil prices will do damn thing but put more people out of work. More people out of work is deflationary. Less demand for goods. I already explained savings and you once again project into the future as if the US consumer has unlimited funds. Once housing busts watch watch happens to spending. Again I refer you to the UK.

Thus your scenario is totally bogus.
That does not mean you can not make money in the short term on it. Treasury bears have had their asses handed to them. Overstay your welcome and it is likely to happen to you. In the meantime I have stated that I am neutral to bearish on treasuries because of the capitulation of Gross. Once housing busts I will be a treasury bull. Good luck in the meantime. The higher yields get now, the quicker housing busts so I wish you well.

Mish



To: Umunhum who wrote (36567)7/22/2005 2:38:30 AM
From: mishedlo  Respond to of 110194
 
Hamish McRae: Even after the latest tinkering, Brown may break his golden rule
news.independent.co.uk

This is a good article on Revenues in the UK.

snip...
It is also prudent, given the way tax revenues are falling short of plans, not to promise to spend more until it is clear you have the money to do so. Sure you can put up tax rates but then you clobber growth, as Germany has discovered, and you may not even get in any additional revenue.

It is too early to panic, but the fact that the Government has had to borrow nearly half its stated annual allocation in the first three months of the fiscal year is not good news for anyone.
snap...

snip...
The Bank of England minutes yesterday underlined this new fragility. Things have damped down much more swiftly than was evident even two months ago and it does now look odds-on that the first cut in interest rates will come in August, with further cuts before Christmas.

The primary question then will be whether these cuts will revive the economy. Will people say: "Wow, let's go and buy a new washing machine."? Or will they say: "Phew, now we can pay down that credit card debt a bit faster."? Probably a bit of both - ie they will help the economy a bit but not as much as the authorities will hope.
snap...

Tax reveneues falling
Government Spending increasing
British Pound Falling
Consumer spending dropping
inflation worries over rising oil
Interest Rate futures show two cuts priced in by Dec.

Maybe they hold off in August but I see no reason to expect sustained miracles from UK consumers even though we did see a small blip up on recent data.

So much for "golden rules" when it happens.

Mish



To: Umunhum who wrote (36567)7/22/2005 3:16:10 AM
From: mishedlo  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 110194
 
This may be hard for inflationists to swallow but here it is in black and white in an article by The Independent.

Factories cut the prices they charge their customers last month despite a record surge in raw materials costs, putting their profit margins under pressure and clearing the way for a cut in interest rates next month.

Official figures published yesterday showed that manufacturers' input costs rose at the fastest pace in June for almost two decades.

Jonathan Loynes, the chief UK economist at Capital Economics, said: "This is good news for high-street inflation, but not for profits. Producers are having to absorb the bulk of the ongoing rise in costs rather than passing it along the supply chain."
==========================================================
Hmmm oil has gone from $25 to $60 and factories are cutting prices. How about that! That is not inflationary in my book. Seems like demand has fallen off the cliff in the UK, and it all started with a slowdown in housing.

globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com

Now uhmuhnum do you care to tell me what can not happen
1) about oil?
2) about rate cuts and a falling currency?
3) about rate cuts, deficits, government spending and tax revenues?

Supposedly three "logically twisted" things that can not happen seem to be happening as I type. Did I forget to mention a huge rally in UK long term bonds?

Please explain that impossibility as well, especially in light of 1, 2, and 3 above.

Is Japan and China buying massive amounts of UK treasuries?
Is the Carribbean buying massive amounts of UK treasuries?

The same scenario will be coming soon to the US. A housing bust will start the ball rolling.

Mish



To: Umunhum who wrote (36567)7/22/2005 3:31:55 AM
From: mishedlo  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 110194
 
Global: No Bottlenecks without a Bottle
Stephen Roach (New York)
morganstanley.com

The more I ponder the inflation story, the more I become convinced that we need to come up with a new approach. In two earlier essays, I addressed the shifting composition of inflation (see “Inflation Phobia” July 15, 2005) and the cross-border convergence of pricing (see “Inflation Convergence, July 18, 2005). In what follows, I explore some important shifts in the macro relationships that have long been at the heart of the inflation process. What emerges from this trilogy is a strong conviction that increasingly powerful forces of globalization have fundamentally altered the inflation outlook. Barring a setback to globalization or a major policy blunder, low inflation could well be here to stay for the foreseeable future.

Globalization is all about the cross-border integration of economies, markets, trade and financial capital flows, and information. Ultimately, it also entails increased mobility of the factors of production -- capital, labor, and technology -- thereby forcing us to think about the production process and the dissemination of services in an increasingly global context. That means the pricing of goods and services must also be examined in the same broader framework -- in essence, determined by the market-clearing balance between globalized supply and demand curves. The rapid expansion of global trade in recent years underscores the need to accept this analytical leap of faith in assessing inflation risk. By our calculations, global exports will exceed 28% of world GDP in 2005 -- easily a record and more than ten percentage points above the 17% share that prevailed as recently as 1986. As global trade continues to power ahead, the forces of globalization -- and their impacts on real economic and financial market activity -- can only intensify as a result.

It’s easy to be awestruck by the anecdotes of globalization; look no further than Tom Friedman’s latest best-seller, The World Is Flat (Farrar, Strauss and Giroux, 2005). As macro practitioners, however, we need to dig deeper. In particular, it is critical to assess whether cross-border integration has had a major impact on time-honored macro relationships that drive economic growth, employment, income generation, and inflation. I am very sympathetic to that possibility. I first explored such an outcome in the context of shifting global trends in employment and labor income generation (see my 5 October 2003 essay, The Global Labor Arbitrage). More recently, I have generalized this framework to include the cross-border arbitrage of saving and pricing (see my 6 June 2005 essay, The New Macro of Globalization). Some fascinating new research just published by the Bank for International Settlements adds further evidence to this debate. In particular, it sheds considerable light on how globalization is challenging the macro relationships that have long been at the heart of our understanding of the inflation process (see especially Chapter II of the 75th Annual Report of the BIS, June 2005). The BIS research provides a goldmine of evidence in the laboratory of globalization.

Three findings by the BIS strike me as especially noteworthy in revealing the impacts of globalization on inflation (see accompanying table): First is the link between exchange rates and import prices. Currency depreciation has long been perceived as an inflationary development. Unless foreign exporters are willing to compromise their profit margins, it makes sense for them to maintain price targets in home-currency terms -- thereby allowing external pricing to fluctuate with shifts in foreign exchange rates. While that’s still the case to some extent, BIS researchers have found that this relationship has become far less robust as globalization has taken hold. They compare this relationship over two periods -- the modern-day globalization era of 1990 to 2004 and the “pre-globalization” era of 1971-89. An examination of trends in six major developed countries -- the US, Japan, Germany, France, the UK, and Italy -- finds that the sensitivity (elasticity) of import prices to a one percentage point change in the nominal effective exchange rate has diminished sharply between the two periods. In the US, for example, the exchange-rate-import-price elasticity over the most recent 15 years was more than 60% below the elasticity of the preceding 20 years. Declines of varying magnitudes were also evident in the other five countries -- led by France and followed in descending order by Japan, the UK, Italy, and Germany.

Second, the BIS also finds that that the pass-through of import prices into the domestic price structure has been seriously curtailed as globalization has taken root. With the exception of Italy, all of the six countries examined have experienced a dramatic decline in the sensitivity between fluctuations in import prices and domestic prices in the past 15 years. I suspect this underscores the increased power of the global price-setting mechanism: Even if import prices rise due to currency fluctuations or market conditions in foreign economies, the lack of pricing leverage in a world with a hugely-expanded global supply curve now constrains domestic producers from passing through these higher external costs. In all six countries, this constraint has been evident in the form of reduced elasticities as globalization has taken off over the 1990 to 2004 period.

Third, there is also solid evidence of sharply diminished linkages between inflation and the broadest gauges of market pressures. This shows up in the form of reduced sensitivities between fluctuations in core inflation and changes in the so-called output gap -- the difference between actual and “potential,” or full-employment GDP. The UK experience is an exception to this trend, but sharp reductions in this elasticity were evident between the globalization and pre-globalization periods for Japan, France, Italy, the US, and Germany. Not surprisingly, this result fits well with equally-impressive declines in the linkages between unit labor costs and core inflation that I noted in the second installment of this trilogy (see my 19 July dispatch, “Inflation Convergence). If the broadly-based output gap has lost its potency in driving fluctuations in inflation, it stands to reason that a similar result can be expected from the linkage between inflation and the cost pressures that arise from cyclical fluctuations in the labor-market piece of the output gap.

Don’t get me wrong -- this is not ironclad evidence that globalization has repealed the macro rules of inflation. However, there can be no mistaking the evidence of a sharp reduction of the linkages between price setting and several of its key determinants -- namely, currencies, import prices, output gaps, and labor costs. It’s the timing of these diminished linkages that brings globalization into the story. For six major developed economies, the elasticities and correlations have declined during the same period when globalization has burst forth with extraordinary scope and speed. Maybe that’s just a coincidence. After all, there could certainly be other powerful forces at work. Central bankers would like you to believe that they deserve credit for their success as inflation fighters. In addition, the explosion of the Internet points to a new technology of price setting. These developments can hardly be dismissed as inconsequential events on the inflation front. But, in my view, they are dwarfed by the far more powerful market-driven forces of globalization. I do not think it is a coincidence that global inflation convergence has occurred at the same time when the roles of currencies, import prices, and labor costs have all diminished in importance in shaping inflation. Nor do I think it is a coincidence that these developments have all occurred during a period when global trade has soared repeatedly to new records as a share of world GDP.

At work, in my view, is the globalization of disinflation. Our old closed-economy models have been rendered increasingly obsolete by the emergence of far more powerful cross-border influences on pricing. As a result, in making inflation calls, we now need to pay less attention to country-specific shifts in unemployment and capacity utilization rates. Instead, we need to focus more on the global balance between supply and demand that shape the far more open models of globalization. In that broader context, the outlook for inflation remains very constructive, in my view. After all, it’s hard to have bottlenecks without a bottle.



To: Umunhum who wrote (36567)7/22/2005 10:58:35 AM
From: John Vosilla  Respond to of 110194
 
"You are assuming a housing bust. We could also have a dollar bust or a combination of the two"

So we have a regional housing bust and dollar bust. End result is stagflation. The big winner next cycle will not be someone either leveraged in overvalued SoCal real estate or betting on a downturn in SoCal RE. Gold, natural resources, flyover country RE under the radar might do very well.