Silicon Investor (SI) -- The First Internet Community

STOCKTALK

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor. We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community. If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.

Strategies & Market Trends : Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: NOW who wrote (34516)	7/29/2005 3:19:14 PM
From: shades	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 116555

I have read all the links I posted and all the recent matches by the news.google - if you feel there is more to be read please post some links and references - I thought we were going to try and take this to a more fact based science/study supported discussion? Various acceptable statistical and methodological workarounds to those limitations were used, and are detailed by the studies authors. I am not sure I know how to respond to that, we are on Mish's thread and I have seen posted here many times that many investors don't trust the government data and statistics - but you want me to do so, I can tell you from personal experience there are many agendas and lies. Maharty said from the beginning she was looking to support a claim that immigrants are a net benefit, not net detractor - so she started from the getgo trying to find data and color things in such a way to support her hypothesis - bad science - I was always taught you become your own worst critic and try falsify your claim FIRST - and only then - with what is left - do you try to support it - clearly this is not the method she used. The data was quite clear and very robust: in the period studied, health expenditures were substantially lower for immigrants than for US born persons. They are looking at one subset of entire healthcare costs - as the detractor in the article pointed out, ok so they may spend 27% less on preventive care, there are 200% more uninsured burdening the system - you have not addressed this and keep ducking it. Another problem I have pointed out and was also pointed out by later AHRQ data - that study was OLD - the period studied has missed the last decade of huge immigrant influx - I am no longer living in 1997, I am living in 2005. Much more growth in immigrant population these past 10 years. I went to a hospital in 1999, things were not so bad in the emergency room, in 2004 I went again, tons of immigrants were in that same emergency room and my wait had increased 10 fold - the study does not track this RECENT change, but my 2 eyes and my health problems that made me go to the hospital did. Worse, it seemed many in the emergency room couldn't speak english and the workers couldn't speak spanish - again I posted a link supporting this saying that nurses and doctors don't give the same level of care and patients don't receieve the same level of care because of cultural or language differences - this is a bad problem it seems in many areas - not just mine. The reverse recently happened to a friend in mexico - they didn't speak english and he spoke no spanish. One of the previous posted links did say they estimate that the older population will be the heavier toll on the emergency room going forward to 2030, but from my experience it was not older people increasing my wait times, lots of young sick immigrant children were ahead of me in the ER. Still we already have a severe overcrowding problem that is well documented, sending in more immigrants is just going to add fuel to a fire that needs to be extinguished - this may be different where you are at - which for the fourth time I will ask again - where are you? - I am in south florida. So if it is a choice of booting out the old people who have been taxpayers their entire lives or stopping the influx of new immigrants to try and get wait times under control in emergency, I choose the later. I already said I do support the method I linked to where we train immigrant nurses and medical people and then bring them over here to help with that problem. Unmetered flow of immigrants with no english or no skills is a net negative however. We will just keep increasing medical demands while medical supply does not keep up. So to get to the finer points you are claiming preventive care is not the money saver and emergency room care is not costly - so more people going to emergency rooms and less doing preventive care doesn't really change the aggregate costs - I don't buy that fallacy - provide links supporting your hypothesis - If you can show me a lot of research to the contrary minds can always be changed - I thought you had problems with people giving personal conjecture without unbiased studys - hehe. You didn't answer me why emergency room care for immigrant children costs three times as much as non immigrant children as the study says - why is this too early? quit ducking the question - is it possible because those non immigrant did some preventive maintenance? Or is it because they have to pay for translators for the immigrants? You claim to be the expert - what is the reason for 300% cost increase?? I already posted time and again that the immigrants language problems is very non productive and not just in the medical sphere - we will burn through an entire generation of productivity because of this - data shows either from language or cultural issues they do not follow doctors and nurses advice and recommendations - thus they don't get better - but worse. As for the immigrants taking lipitor, the data shows the immigrants children do not take "thier meds" as you say and thus get sicker, wind up in expensive emergency care and cost more. I see a lot in miami that are popping xanax, oxycontin, etc etc. but that is not the kind of meds I think you are referring to - hehe. If things are so good too early, why do all these recently immigrated cubans and haitians and even mexicans say to me - OH PLEASE - tell jeb bush NO MORE IMMIGRANTS - what are they not understanding that you do?? I guess they feel the quality of thier life going down and the study has not convinced them otherwise - silly immigrants - all they have to do is read the study - things are getting better - better all the time.

To: NOW who wrote (34516)	7/30/2005 2:21:02 PM
From: shades	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 116555

It may come as a surprise for you, but preventive services (that is my specialty) are not the money savers that we all dreamed they might be, A medical friend - lab tech supervisor told me to send these link to you and for you to please spread it around - ahrq.gov ahrq.gov Put Prevention Into Practice A Step-by-Step Guide to Delivering Clinical Preventive Services: A Systems Approach and said to ask you to please stop spreading falsehoods about preventive care not being the more economical solution.