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To: Moominoid who wrote (67091)	8/7/2005 4:15:53 PM
From: Slagle	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74559

moominoid Re: "energy sink" I don't think bio-diesel from soy is an energy sink, even an average field should net a barrel per acre of a hydrocarbon fuel roughly equal to #2 diesel. The problem is that we don't have in the whole USA sufficient land area to make any meaningful contribution to our current consumption. And I doubt Brazil does either. Sugar cane is related to corn and both require large nitrogen inputs and I would be willing to bet that there is little difference between the two in this regard. Modern farming began back over 100 years ago and is totally based upon the application of artificial fertilizer. Up till the 1920's this nitrogen all came from "guano" which was really fossil bat poop which was mined and bagged and shipped to the farmers. I think the worlds guano supply is largely depleted. After the 1920's came the chemical fertilizer, made mostly from natural gas. Soy is a legume with root nodules containing nitrogen-fixing bacteria so it makes its own nitrogen. THe problem is the availibility of farmland. Lots of land that LOOKS like it could be farmed is worthless. Many soils are underlain by a hardpan, so if there is even a slightly more wet year than normal the plants rot at the root. Lots of the US southeast is like this. Looks good but for farming is useless for anything but pine trees. Really, all the productive land is ALREADY in cultivation. Sure, there is always some adittional land but less than you would think. And that presently under cultivation is needed to feed us. And an increasisng amount of good land is being covered up with useless McMansions. Slagle

To: Moominoid who wrote (67091)	8/8/2005 4:18:31 AM
From: Seeker of Truth	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 74559

This guy Chapman can't be right for the following reason. In Brazil there is no longer any subsidy for ethanol but the ethanol fuel sells for substantially less than gasoline. Half of the cars sold in Brazil now are able to use ethanol. Brazilians who own such a car are buying no gasoline. The energy advantage has to be real and noticeable. cf. ElMatador's posts. P.S. Gas guzzlers in temperate climates can't find ethanol so cheap because we have less sunlight and lower temperatures than tropical Brazil so the sugar cane doesn't grow so exuberantly. That rules out subsidies of course.