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To: altair19 who wrote (47151)	9/29/2005 6:00:31 PM
From: Crocodile	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 104157

altair, * warning - this may sound "anti-hunting" but it's not. it's more a rant about... uhm.... well... something else. (o: all of what you say is quite true, altair however, the only problem i have with hunting as a mode of managing the balance of wildlife population is that, at the same time as hunting of deer is increased to thin out deer populations, the same people (at least up my way) want free rein to hunt down coyote and wolves. some people will say that coyote don't hunt deer, but that's simply not true. i do a great deal of backcountry hiking in the middle of winter and find remains of deer in remote places and many coyote tracks around. if i revisit the same sites a few weeks later, it's obvious that the coyote are coming back to gnaw on bones. the coyote kills also provide food for other lesser mammals as well as scavenging birds. it's not the greatest way for the deer to die, but it is part of the balance of nature and it sustains other wildlife. unfortunately, up here (and down there too), coyote are chased down, often by guys on ATVs, and shot at any time of the year as there is no real "season" on them. the wolves in Algonquin Park are protected from hunting, but until recently (and perhaps even now), if they step outside the park to range beyond, they are killed -- and their population continues to dwindle down to the point that many question whether there will actually be a population in Algonquin within a decade. the argument for hunting the coyote and wolves is that they will prey on cattle and sheep, but I kept a large herd of goats here at the farm for many years and never lost one animal to coyote even though they were denning on the back of my land. here, the deer would come and go -- we have ideal deer habitat at my farm, and i found the remains of the odd one on the back of my land. i don't really have a great problem with hunting if it is done for food. i have plenty of friends who provide for their families that way -- people on limited income such as those who work in forestry or who farm. i guess the two things that do bother me (greatly) are: the hunting of predator animals occurring at the same time as people claim to hunt deer to keep their populations under control. and the very big problem up here -- people wanting to hunt in the same areas as the hiking and cycling trails. i have served on a forest management committee for awhile now and have found the whole issue of trying to work with both hunting groups and other recreation groups very difficult. autumn in about the best time of the year to go hiking in the woods -- no mosquitoes, no deerflies, and temperatures are pleasant, and yet, just about the same time, the guns come out and the hikers have to forget about going out on the trails. being a hiker, i understand the frustration. i wouldn't have such a problem with the idea of people hunting in some of the same places that i hike, except that i've encountered such stupidity among what is probably just a small percentage of the hunters -- but you only need a couple of loose cannons in the bush and things get dangerous. i've found (and reported to the police) deer stands (platforms to shoot from) up in trees right over cycling and hiking trails - and ATV trails for that matter. I've also found practice targets located in the woods right behind a few feet of cedar brush lined up so that the bullets would go right across a major hiking trail. the police and DNR people will remove targets and deer stands, but next thing you know they're back up in the trees again. i've even ripped them down on the back of my own land which is posted for no hunting and where i wander around shooting photos in and out of deer season. however, some hunters are even a menace to themselves. last year, a guy out hunting for bear was shot by another guy who saw him and thought his leg was a bear coming towards him... the guy had on an orange vest, but was wearing dark jeans. scary! and it's not just "up here" (i would hate to think that canuck hunters are worse than elsewhere), but i've read of similar incidents on canoeing and hiking forums from the states.. people who have had their tents shots through by hunters while they were camped at established public campsites up on the adirondack trail, etc... but, most game wardens and natural resources people will tell you that not that many hunters shot by other hunters. far more take heart attacks while struggling to load a deer onto their ATV or pack part of it back out of the bush because they aren't in good shape -- most being weekend warrior. and that's also their warning to us..the hikers.. stay the hell out of the bush during the first one or two weeks of the season, because that's when the weekend warriors are out lurking around in their camis.. and they all say that hiking in forests nearer to main cities is just about the most dangerous place of all. safest place is in the areas far from the cities where most of the hunters are local farmers, and they are dressed in bright orange plastic pants and jackets (looking rather like martians), and they don't shoot anything they don't see very well. anyhow, end of rant from someone who has had plenty of interaction with hunters and DNR staff and heard and seen plenty of scary stories. reminds me of that song -- with lyrics somewhat altered --- "if you go out in the woods today, you'll get a big surprise" yup... you might just get that, alright. (*end of croc's annual rant). (o: ~croc

To: altair19 who wrote (47151)	9/29/2005 6:50:08 PM
From: Crocodile	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 104157

altair~ forgot to mention this -- We increased the deer quotas in our town - the interesting thing they did was only to increase it for bow hunters. up here we have a longer season for bow hunting in most places. couple of reasons, but the main one seems to be that rifle and bow hunting aren't really that compatible. Bow hunters don't usually bother going out to the forests until the end of the rifle season -- i expect because they are more into camouflage, stealth and concealment, and that's not really terribly safe when there are people with rifles wandering around. have a couple of other things i might say on the subject, but you might get the impression that i'm grumpy. (o: ~croc