Mr. Michaelson, just what did you mean by "crossing the line"? Did you really ask Royer that? Was your testimony wrong? You have had some time, want to clear it up?
Don't you think your testimony came across to any jury or basically anyone, that you thought Royer and Tony were breaking the law, but you could isolate yourself because of rank stupidity?
Were you shading the truth and contriving testimony to deceive the jury and to cover up crimes? I presume not, but read what your were saying, its going to come across that way if you read it.
You really seem to be struggling to withhold clear answers to pretty generalized questions. If there were any moms on the jury, they could see through this easily.
Were you desperately trying to stick to script?
You even did a " what do you mean by the word confidential" type of statement. Come on, that is going to start sirens in the minds of any juror.
You even said disregard my testimony. What was up with that? Mocking the process?
Seriously have you read some it? Have you read your testimony?
19 THE COURT: That's done as a matter of routine
20 with every witness.
21 What is your question?
22 THE WITNESS: Well, just that at the end of the
23 day yesterday I was tired. Then there was a complete
24 change of subject and things were coming fast and fierce,
25 and I can't guaranty the accuracy of what I said during
FREDERICK R. GUERINO, C.S.R.
Michaelson - Cross/Breen
5428
1 the cross-examination.
2 THE COURT: Anything in particular?
3 THE WITNESS: Well, I can't even really at this
4 point remember what I was asked. It was in a big fog, and
5 there are a lot of vague recollections, and I just don't
6 know what I said is accurate.
5 CROSS-EXAMINATION (Cont'd.)
6 BY MR. BREEN:
7 Q. Good morning, Mr. Michaelson.
8 A. Good morning.
9 Q. Mr. Michaelson, during your testimony yesterday you
10 were asked this question and gave this answer:
11 "Question: Do you remember speaking with
12 Mr. Royer about transferring law enforcement information
13 to Mr. Elgindy?
14 "Answer: Now that you say that, I have a vague
15 recollection of wondering how he manages to keep the line,
16 you know, not cross the line. I remember meeting him in
17 Tony's office at one time."
18 Now, have you had some more time to think about
19 that answer.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And is that something that you thought about from
22 time to time?
23 A. Honestly, I don't recall.
24 Q. When you testified yesterday that you had a
25 recollection of having thought to yourself whether
FREDERICK R. GUERINO, C.S.R.
Michaelson - Cross/Breen
5430
1 Mr. Royer crosses the line, were you testifying
2 truthfully?
3 MR. BERKE: Objection. I think it misstates the
4 testimony.
5 THE COURT: Overruled.
6 A. I intended to testify truthfully, but in all honestly
7 it was the end of the day, I was very tired. It was a
8 long time ago. Recollections of the past had been mixed
9 up with thoughts that happened since then. It was all --
10 it's a bit misty in there.
11 Q. So, are you saying that your memory is better now or
12 was better yesterday, when you testified about that
13 recollection?
14 A. Well, I can speak more clearly this morning than I
15 could last night.
16 Q. Now, you testified yesterday that you received
17 information on the AP site with regard to FBI and SEC
18 investigations?
19 Do you remember that.
20 A. I don't remember saying it, but I remember it
21 happening.
22 Q. Okay.
23 Now, you testified that you believe Mr. Elgindy
24 had this information from being questioned by law
25 enforcement, correct.
FREDERICK R. GUERINO, C.S.R.
Michaelson - Cross/Breen
5431
1 A. I believe I testified that -- I would like to think
2 about that for a second.
3 Could you perhaps repeat the original question?
4 Q. Well, let me just ask you directly: How did you
5 think Mr. Elgindy had confidential law enforcement
6 information?
7 A. Well, I'm not sure that I thought the information was
8 so confidential. I don't recall thinking of it as
9 confidential. I'm not exactly sure what the definition of
10 confidential is either.
11 Q. We'll get to confidential. But how did you think
12 that Mr. Elgindy had FBI and SEC information?
13 A. I thought from direct conversations with SEC or FBI
14 people, and also from speaking with other people who may
15 have had that contact.
16 Q. Did you believe that it was gleaned from questioning?
17 A. I believe -- I do remember believing that some of it
18 was -- I remember thinking that some of it was probably
19 gleaned from - gleaned means inferred in this case -
20 that he may have inferred information from the nature of
21 questions that he may have been asked by law enforcement
22 people.
23 Q. Do you think that beyond that Mr. Elgindy was
24 provided with information by law enforcement officials?
25 MR. BERKE: Objection. Do you think or did you
FREDERICK R. GUERINO, C.S.R.
Michaelson - Cross/Breen
5432
1 think.
2 THE COURT: Overruled.
3 A. I'm sorry, would you please repeat the question.
4 Q. Do you think that Mr. Elgindy was getting information
5 from law enforcement officials other than through the
6 questioning that they did of him?
7 A. Directly from?
8 Q. They were providing information to him not in their
9 questions, but being inferred?
10 A. I think, having seen chat logs recently, I would have
11 to look at those chat logs again.
12 Q. We are going to look at some chat logs.
13 A. Okay. Because if he said they told me, then I would
14 have believed they told me that they had told him,
15 probably.
16 Q. You said you looked at chat logs recently. Was that
17 part of your preparation for testimony?
18 A. I mean, just right here.
19 Q. Before that had you looked at chat logs?
20 A. Yes, with the defense attorneys.
21 Q. Did you also read news accounts of this case in
22 preparation for your testimony?
23 A. I don't know if it was in preparation. I did read
24 news accounts out of interest.
25 Q. Let me ask you a general question.
FREDERICK R. GUERINO, C.S.R.
Michaelson - Cross/Breen
5433
1 Did you understand that the FBI had a duty to
2 keep confidential law enforcement information
3 confidential?
4 MR. GERZOG: Objection.
5 THE COURT: Overruled.
6 A. Could you define confidential, please.
7 Q. Confidential in the sense of being sensitive law
8 enforcement information?
9 A. Do I believe -- well --.
10 Q. Do you believe that the FBI has a duty to keep
11 confidential or sensitive law enforcement information
12 confidential?
13 A. If they are proscribed by law not to reveal that
14 information, then certainly if it is part of -- if it is
15 a useful tool to reveal some information and it's legal,
16 then not necessarily.
17 Q. So, are you saying that they would have a duty to
18 keep it confidential, unless their disclosure was part of
19 the investigation of criminal conduct?
20 A. Well, you know, I don't really know how law
21 enforcement works. This is my first brush with it.
22 Q. Well, what do you think your obligation was?
23 A. I think their obligation is to do the best job they
24 can to the best they can do it.
25 Q. Do you think an FBI agent could tell his friend a
FREDERICK R. GUERINO, C.S.R.
Michaelson - Cross/Breen
5434
1 trader about investigations?
2 MR. GERZOG: Objection, Judge.
3 THE COURT: His friend?
4 Q. If the FBI agent did have a friend who was a trader,
5 could the F.B.I. agent just tell that friend about an
6 investigation?
7 MR. GERZOG: Speculation, Judge. Objection.
8 THE COURT: Overruled.
9 A. You know, that's a pretty -- trying to hold myself
10 up to a high moral standard, I would hope that I wouldn't
11 do that, but human beings, they have friends, they talk.
12 Everybody talks. It happens, I'm sure.
13 Q. But you agree, don't you, that information about say
14 a securities fraud investigation of the company is
15 valuable information?
16 A. Valuable in which respect?
17 Q. To the trader?
18 A. To a trader? Yes, that's certainly valuable.
19 Q. And if an FBI agent had that information -- the FBI
20 agent would have that information, that would be valuable
21 to traders, correct?
22 A. Is that the same question, basically? Is there a
23 different -- I'm sorry, could you repeat it, please.
24 Q. If an FBI agent has information regarding a law
25 enforcement investigation, involving securities fraud of a
FREDERICK R. GUERINO, C.S.R.
Michaelson - Cross/Breen
5435
1 company, and has a friend who is a trader, does the FBI
2 agent have information that is valuable to his friend?
3 A. Yes. Potentially, if the friend traded on that
4 information, yes, and made money. If they lost money, it
5 wasn't quite so valuable.
6 Q. So, an FBI agent who has that information from his or
7 her duties as an FBI agent, do you think it is okay for
8 that person to give that valuable information to their
9 friend the trader?
10 MR. GERZOG: Objection.
11 THE COURT: Overruled.
12 A. No, I don't think it is okay.
13 Q. You don't.
14 You agree that the FBI agent had a duty not to
15 do that.
16 A. Well, unless there are more complicated
17 considerations like, you know, sharing information back
18 and forth, or other things that I just know nothing about.
19 But on the face of it, it certainly sounds like it is not
20 a good idea for a law enforcement agent to go spilling a
21 lot of information all over the place.
22 Q. So, is the answer yes, that the agent would have a
23 duty, unless it was part of that agent's responsibilities
24 as part of an investigation to communicate information?
25 MR. GERZOG: Objection, your Honor.
FREDERICK R. GUERINO, C.S.R.
Michaelson - Cross/Breen
5436
1 THE COURT: Sustained as to form.
2 BY MR. BREEN:
3 Q. So, was it your understanding that an FBI agent with
4 such information would only be able to disclose it in
5 connection with efforts to investigate a case?
6 MR. BERKE: Objection.
7 THE COURT: Fred, let me hear that again.
8 (The pending question is read back.)
9 THE COURT: Overruled.
10 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, objection is overruled,
11 so I can answer that?
12 THE COURT: Yes, please.
13 A. You know, again, it is -- I guess I would think -
14 and I'm no expert in this area - but having watched
15 television, I would think that maybe there's a
16 relationship where -- I don't know. I don't know.
12 Q. Okay. Which brings us to our next example. RH-3,
13 same timeframe, lease read the highlighted lines?
14 A. Anthony says: Mike Ditka, I need to get a
15 hold of the former football coach. E-mail me whatever
16 info you have. Time is critical.
17 Then, Anthony: I'm going to send him the actual
18 FBI reports on SEVU.
19 Q. Now, here Mr. Elgindy says, "He actually has FBI
20 reports."
21 Correct?
22 A. He seems to be saying, yes or he could be saying he's
23 got a have them sent or any other permutations, but
24 certainly, that would imply he's holding them and he could
25 just send them.
Anthony D. Frisolone, CRR, CSR
Official US District Court Reporter
Michaelson - Cross/Breen
5447
1 Q. Did you think Mr. Elgindy was lying about having
2 access to actual FBI reports?
3 MR. GERZOG: Objection, Judge, foundation.
4 THE COURT: Well, I don't know if this gentleman
5 was on the chat at the time if he had read the chat some
6 time before.
7 MR. BREEN: I believe his testimony yesterday,
8 Your Honor, was that he had read it or he read the logs.
9 THE COURT: Do you remember this chat by any
10 chance?
11 THE WITNESS: It certainly -- I remember it now
12 that I'm looking at it.
13 THE COURT: Okay. Fair enough.
14 THE WITNESS: I guess. It looks very familiar,
15 yes.
16 BY MR. BREEN:
17 Q. Do you think that Mr. Elgindy was lying when he said
18 he accessed the actual FBI reports?
19 MR. GERZOG: Objection, Judge.
20 THE COURT: Overruled.
21 A. I think he lied all the time. Exaggerated, enhanced.
22 Made himself look good. Said he whatever. He's very ego
23 driven.
24 Q. Do you remember yesterday being asked this question
25 and giving this answer.
Anthony D. Frisolone, CRR, CSR
Official US District Court Reporter
Michaelson - Cross/Breen
5448
1 "QUESTION: Do you have any reason to believe
2 that he," Mr. Elgindy, "was not being truthful when he
3 would tell you that he had confirmed investigations of
4 that sort?"
5 "ANSWER: No."
6 A. I remember it now that you're read it, yes.
7 Q. So, yesterday you didn't have any reason to question
8 it but today you do?
9 MR. BERKE: Objection, Judge.
10 THE COURT: Overruled.
11 A. Yes, I believe. I don't affirm or I don't know what
12 I said yesterday, I was really tired.
13 Q. So, are you saying that we should just disregard your
14 testimony from yesterday altogether?
15 A. I wish you would.
16 MR. BERKE: Can we clarify, the whole day or the
17 end of the day?
18 THE COURT: Have a seat, Mr. Berke.
19 Next question.
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