You are confused Jack - you mistook my reference to your non chinese speaking grandpa as an attack on yourself - so lets clear things up. Go back and read the post thinking of grandpa as one of the top 10 people in chinese history and not you and perhaps it will clear the blind emotion you have in your heart and make more sense.
hello brian h, your grammar gave you away, frankly.
I don't know who brian h is, but I am not he or she - I am concerned with governments and corporations that surpress the rights of citizens and hurt the little guy - east or west. I believe your grandfather shared those views Jack. If I were brian h however - does that justify attacking messengers and not messages?
... Now, come, that wasn't quite what I said, was it?
I would like for things to be very clear, I posted an article by a roman in Rome with some justified criticism of the chinese CCP and white papers - A rome news paper man who may live in china and do business there with great asian connections for all you know - you basically said to pay it zero attention because he was not a chinese in china right?
Attacking the messenger - not the message. Don't do that.
I then made reference to your grandfather - who also was not a chinese - but a british subject right? He used being a british subject to get out of chinese jails. He was educated in western schools and did not speak the chinese language - he was also a newspaperman like this guy in Rome. It obviously went over your head about your own grandfather - I thought the 10 most important people in chinese history and the LICE comment made the context very clear I was talking about your grandfather and not you - I went on to bascially say if the chinese of that day had the same FEELINGS you have TODAY about rejecting non chinese viewpoints - then your grandfather probably would not have amounted to much and where would you be? Would the wests war with China over raping white women not have been averted if Grandpa was not there? Here is the link for the info on your grandfather that I guess you forgot achamchen.com
In the future when I refer to the guy from tobago (actually trinidad - sorry - the 2 seem basically interchangeable to me however) who didn't speak the language and was one of the top 10 people in chinese history and make reference to LICE - I hope you don't get yourself confused with your grandfather again - obviously you are not paying attention. I wonder why on your BIO page of your grandfather after LICE-COVERED the word ASSASSINS is missing ? It used to be there. Revisionist history sucks Jack. Pay Attention and please fix that glaring error - reminds me too much of CCP censorship - everyone needs to know that to stand up for the little guy - your grandpa was put in with lice ridden ASSASSINS because he wouldn't toe the line of the wealthy corrupt and spread much dissention - that was a fine man of character. Dissention is good Jack. The current oppressive chinese government needs to be reminded there are still chens that are willing to stand up for the little guy and his rights like grandpa chen - even at great personal sacrifice. I know you are following in grandpas footsteps Jack - but please try to do more of shooting messages and not messengers - if there is an error with what the roman guy is saying about chinese white papers other than he is in Rome Italy - what is it? If whoever this brian h guy that gets you so emotional posts a message you disagree with - please attack the message and not the messenger.
Old habits never die, brian, and putting words in my thoughts is an old habit of yours.
I am not brian h - I don't even know who that is - what has he done that gets you so emotional to make you confuse yourself with your own grandpa?
science.slashdot.org MIT agrees bad habits are hard to break - I remember in psychology class the professor talking about crystallization type processes of the brain as we age. You must fight these old habits and crystallization process as long as you can to keep on your toes.
Anyway, I merely pointed out there seems to be little relevancy in what folks say when at such a distance and particularly if they had their mind so made up already by their earlier writings. Am I so wrong?
You do not know who the italian reporter is or his involvement or connections - he could be 3/4 chinese for all you or I know - to wholly dismiss his viewpoints is very poor form Jack - stop doing that - attack messages - not messengers.
I merely pointed out that one of chinas top 10 people in history - that you must have forgot about - your grandpa - was from an island - was of different ethnic roots and citizenship - did not speak the language - and was educated in western schools - he had viewpoints - how you can so easily disregard anyone elses viewpoint given your own family's history makes me take pause. Your grandpa proved that yes indeed outsiders can have a difference. It was the jacks of yesteryear with closed minded thinking that put grand daddy Chen in jail - expand your horizons - other people can have GREAT INSIGHT into things and places and countries and events and not even have been born there or went to school there or speak the language or even be the same ethnicity - like grand daddy chen.
The world is a much smaller place than in your grandpas day Jack - you talk of great distances like perhaps he thought of them - back in his day maybe it took months for an army to mobilize or weeks for the news to spread to many people - but today even some guy in rome can get on his computer or cell phone and invest in china or read the news or make changes.
He can fly to china in hours - not the weeks or months it took back in grandpas day - the world is very much smaller today Jack. When you say DISTANCE - it just doesn't have that much meaning as in the old days.
What particularly do you find wrong with the roman italian guys analysis of chinese white papers other than he is posting from Rome - for all you know he is half chinese and lives in asia 10 months out of the year. I would even suppose being that he covers asia for italian readers - he may even have better informed connections than the chens of trinidad.
... Now, now, let us not turn to be common and nasty, and untruthful.
I was not being nasty - you clearly brought some kind of blind pride in responding to me saying outsiders (romans) cannot have any INSIGHT into chinas affairs - and I said your grandfather was an outsider who did not even speak the language - everything I have read on him on the internet says he did not speak the language - he was educated in western schools - came from the islands - and did jail time with LICE ridden assassins - is this not true? Why on the one hand is this outsider celebrated - yet on the other hand you are going to tell me an italian can't have any insight - it seems hypocritical to me - I just want to understand - can you please clarify?
I speak the language fine,
But I said one of chinas top 10 people in history - why would you not remember this was meaning your GRANDPA? You have lost objectivity with your reply - you must have got very emotional thinking it was brian h - but I am not and do not know who he is Jack. I only wish you not to lose OBJECTIVITY - either with your replies to me or with your rebuke of others analyzing chinese situations - you make a hypocrisy of your own grandfather if you do that - don't be so closed minded Jack. Don't sit here and talk about other countries with your insight and say no one else can do that for China - that is very hypocritical. Already other posters here are making comments like this is the CHINA CAN DO NO WRONG thread - see objective people are seeing the slant and are trying to correct it - don't give in to the darkside - we all must help each other find the happy medium.
<<If more had thought that of your grandfather - where would you be today?>>
... I am sure I am not understanding you,
That is obvious at this point - you are lost in a haze of emotion Jack. Forget about messengers - focus on messages. That is what is important no?
perhaps you are just being nasty, but then who cares?
I wasn't, I was trying to show you that even your own grandpa was an outsider and he could publish stories on china - of which I read he published many - attacking many whites who I suppose he felt were supressing the little guys in china - like Ghandi in India - but unlike Ghandi - who I have read was racist towards negroes - your grandfather being part negro was certainly more universal in his love for the poor underclass no - regardless if they were black or roman?
However you are telling me no roman guy from rome italy should be listened too? Why Jay? You know I am really trying hard not to buy into the yiwu the mad groupthink theory proposed here - the nationalist blind pride - its getting obvious you are losing objectivity - dont do that Jack - that leads you down a dark path Darth Vader style.
Blinded by emotion and pre conceived notions that only chinese can impact chinese is disproven by your very grandfather!! I guess if grandpa chen were alive today he would be of little use to the chinese - being he couldn't speak the language - a british subject - part spanish and negro - how could he ever rise to such high status in communist china of today with closed minded Jacks?
Next point. Will you degenerate to making fun of my pet rock as well? Go ahead, show yourself as you really are.
I was not making fun of you, your pet rock, or your grand father, I was showing you that even your own grandpa was a news paper man that was not chinese and how thankfully for the chinese people of his day - they did not share your CLOSED MINDED attitude that people from outside china cannot comment on things happening there and shooting messengers is OK. Why would you believe that? El Mat comments on the USA all the time - he was working in Iran last I read - a possible future enemy of the USA and UK - would you think it prudent that me and others that have lived in the west tell him he cannot offer insight? I enjoy reading his different perspectives even if I do not agree with them. Simply because he is not an american citizen living in america day to day he can have no insight into affairs here? I know you don't think that - don't be hypocritical.
Why are you going off the handle like this? Current chinese gubbment types like WEN know that CHENS of the past have changed the government and the country - outsiders that didn't even speak the language - and you chens will not tolerate for one second censorship or policies that shoot the messengers because they are not chinese - in the spirit of your grandpa of course - but here you are taking the attitude of what I suppose were the very types that imprisoned your grandfather - NO TOLERANCE of non chinese or thier views on china.
<<I bet you don't fight off the Lice?>>
... Hey, more common denominator? With you as opposition, ala Lee Tung Hui, my heart is at ease ;0)
That was a reference to your grandpa that got locked up with the lice ridden assassins - Jack - you say some italian cant have ANY Introspect into a chinese white paper - but you will sit there and talk about all these other countries - don't be a hypocrite - it makes people not take you seriously anymore. You are attacking friends lost in blind pride and emotion - don't do that.
<<What do you think of Wen and his statement?>>
... I think he is correct.
But italian news papermen who also think that need to be totally rebuked and disregarded - so its the MESSENGER that we focus on - not the message? Come on. The italian makes the case that yes indeed pressures externally and internally are very REAL and the CCP know that and WEN has publically commented on it - 70K riots is quite a lot - the question is can the Juggling entertainer keep taking on more and more objects to juggle without it all falling down? "correct reads" of what has passed can be given by many people - but crystal balls are hard to read.
http://www.siliconinvestor.com/readmsg.aspx?msgid=21809397,
I definitely do not believe the CCP gives a hoot what the US or anybodyelse outside of China thinks about its politics and is not at all the case that ...
They claim the contrary - they recognize thier party can blow up - ala Wen's comments - and I have read many reports were pressures outside and in are affecting movements in China - no one is naive enough to think globalism and trade is not impacting all of us in various ways.
Like it or not, china and the USA and many other parts of the world are not ISLANDS and we all rely on each other in some way - that you rebuke it so heavily makes no sense - it is fact no matter how much blind pride you hold.
... few in China is willing to go the American route of electing the lowest common denominator; and as to ...
Well there is another western attack again - I just don't get it - I have talked with many people Jack - but for some reason so many people want to see the USA hurt or fail or insult them when the people in the USA are trying to help them - it makes no sense to me - blind pride is all I can think of.
slashdot.org
The LA Times has an article entitled I Will Eat Your Dollars about Nigerian 419 scammers that presents some of the cultural basis for the crime. They follow some young men in Lagos who toil over computers all-day and long into the night to snag a new victim. They even have a fight song entitled 'I Go Chop Your Dollars.'" From the article: "Scammers, he said, 'have the belief that white men are stupid and greedy. They say the American guy has a good life. There's this belief that for every dollar they lose, the American government will pay them back in some way.'
I have already posted about more representation and I think we can agree that a MAJOR problem is "accountability" in both east and west governments - democratic or no. Graft and cronyism is lethal over time and central removed authority is generally a bad idea. Skywalker was talking about this with the emporer and Vader long before your SI posts - 1977 I believe - I am sure your news paper man grandpa was thinking about it long before him from OUTSIDE of China. What is needed desperately is more informed media reporting - and less "THEATER" that takes us off the issues. American media is not perfect - but I still feel is far and above magnitudes better than what HU did with China and her Media going backwards - but being that I dont live there - I guess I am not allowed to comment eh?
<<CHINA: White paper just a big lie, says activists
Dissident Liu Xiaobo blasts official report for glossing over reality of government's failure to protect basic human rights>>
... oh, given that no read satisfies the dissidents who mope around in their disatisfaction with whatever life they have, it goes without saying that they will object to any and everything the officialdom does and doesn't do.
I wonder if that was said about Dissident grand pa Chen in his dissident days? Basic human rights, more accountability, better media informing - these are serious issues. Your grandpa seemed to understand the power of the PRESS. The USA had a news paper man over called Franklin - he also understand the importance of a good media outfit. He was over here in France a lot though - what could he know of affairs in America during that time?
So are you saying I must disregard stratfor or rome or indian views of the chinese white paper - and now even DISSIDENT CHINESE must not be listened too? Your own GRANDFATHER was a DISSIDENT - You are sounding less like him and more like the ones that locked him up and exposed him to Lice.
Expand your horizons - don't be so closed minded - other people can have views on the CHINA WHITE PAPER and those views can have MERIT even if those people are not CHINESE and cant speak the LANGUAGE ala grand dad Chen.
As to ...
<<Pro-democracy activist Lu Banglie , who was beaten by thugs while trying to enter Taishi earlier this month, said the white paper's account of China's grass-roots democracy development was simply a lie.
"The Taishi incident is just a slap on the face of grass-roots democracy because what the villagers tried to do was to recall the chief in accordance with the law," said Mr Lu.>>
... for every Taishi, ruled by local thugs, there are plenty of successfuly villages,
Hmm there were plenty of successful slave plantations that grew fine crops and the slaves lived in a fairly nice society - why all that civil war in America? Only a few slaves were being beaten or executed no?
and I say that because China is in fact not blowing up.
Wen said things were not so peachy and that things could blow up - it has already been posted that america needs 250 states with better representation and less CENTRAL non accountable government - I dont see why this would not also apply to China. I think most in the states are worried that if China does not LISTEN to some other folks and the CCP tries to hold together what it cannot - instead of lessening the grip - instead of orderly ascencion into the first world there will be much gnashing of teeth, anarchy and chaos - ALA 70K riots. Centralization is exactly the WRONG thing to do. Gnashing that will hurt brazilian el mats, trinidad jacks, and even american bush's.
The Lu Banglie 's of this world has their uses and functions, but astute they are not, and objectivity they are lacking. They do not know what would have happened to them if the clock was turned back by ... oh, 35 years. Let me remind you, the man would never have made it out alive of Taishi or any other city.
Jay over on the krugman board we have an economist from south africa - and he says how does india have basic rights with so many people and china cannot? He talks about cuba and aprtheid in Africa - even he does not like what is going on in China. I suppose I can look to the negro's of America and say why are you bitching about all this MILLIONS MORE movement and want money and such - just 35 years ago stuff like that got you swinging from a tree son or fed to the gators!
So, the improvement is undeniable, the process is on schedule, given the mass of the society, the weight of the population, and the density of the officialdom.
The officialdom is the problem - india has basic human rights with similar numbers of people no - but you dont want to discuss that - you want to attack messengers - stop it - el mat wants me to believe that if we bring basic human rights there people wont get thier beef and will starve - why does the south african economist think this is bullshit? Your inability to accept all these DISSENTING viewpoints that the process can spiral out of control quickly and cause mass anarchy makes you unobjective and without accepting certain realities cannot find solutions to them. But then what does anyone but another CHINESE have to offer the chinese situation - what was grandpa Chen THINKING back then???? He
had no business sticking his spanish negro trinidad british non chinese speaking nose into affairs there did he? :(
What do you, wise one that you are, suggest as an alternative approach?
First off I would suggest losing that BLIND PRIDE that no one else can COMMENT on chinese white papers - had people had that attitude a few decades back grand pa CHEN probably could not have helped - being he was not chinese - did not speak the language - didn't go to school there - etc etc - but you dont have to listen at romans or africans or american or anyone - you remind me of the feminists in america - they say a woman has the right to her own body - she can kill the baby if she wants - but if el mat wants to go rent her body for an hour - NO NO NO - the woman cant do that - she no longer has the right to her body if she wants to rent it out for an hour - what hypocrisy - it makes no sense.
More accountability, more representation, more MEDIA freedom, less CENTRAL non accountable government - less beatings of dissenters - less media blackouts - that would be a nice start. I guess until more grandpa chen types get arrested or beaten and take some blows for the team and get some change - not much is gonna happen - he sat in jail for his beliefs - would you? I am betting not and perhaps that is the problem. What was the non violent solution to slavery in america? Why did they have so much bloodshed? If they had just waited long enough things would have worked out non violently right?
The process is long, difficult, but must start, and then must continue.
History is a process, and processes are typically not well dealt with by the sort who always and forever see a snapshot, and an old snapshot at that.
Boy you can say that again Chen - my negro friends would not like it if I used your mindset and said - BOY you better be HAPPY for the crumbs you got today and only get BEAT UP for your dissenting views - 35 years ago you would be swinging from a tree for that bullshit. But in many countries people are not willing to wait the decades for change to come - and then things get ugly and violent.
IE small village chinese - you better be LUCKY we didn't KILL you and only BEAT you UP - 35 years ago - WHOA - you would be DEAD son! I would rather modern day jack chens were more outraged at the beating of people instead of saying well 35 years ago you would be DEAD. I would hate to see 70K riots break out into massive civil wars - I like my cheap made in china stuff.
But, such insight on process is precisely what you cannnot accept, becase your mind is already made up, can take in no more, and only enable you to scream at what was, is, and will be.
You need to read this sentence again and look in the mirror Jack - if not for yourself - for coconut - outsiders can and do have influence - no one is an island - america thought that in the past - and it seems you and china governments think that today - Wen is admitting things are coming apart - but then you tell me NO NO NO - its all very stable. Some countries took bloody civil wars like in america to bring about change - and then mass rioting. If you don't admit this is possible there, then you can not guard against it.
This screaming is what will entertain on our journey to TeoTwawKi.
The screaming you hear is grandpa chen going to jail fighting off the lice ridden assassins and chinese citizens being beaten unconscious while Jack Chens say you better be LUCKY its not 35 years ago or you would be DEAD - but hey - at least they aren't being executed now - so things are lots better - always see the glass half full and never dissent and things will just keep getting better and better right?
Sometimes it takes dissenters like grandpa chen to CRITICIZE and BITE the hand that feeds them to help the little guy - and these slow processes that you think are making progress - many say are not - but lets not listen at them - they aren't chinese CCP members and therefore have no use - poor grandpa Chen :(
The more laws and order are made prominent, the more thieves and robbers there will be. -- Lao Tsu |
