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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: cnyndwllr who wrote (175001)11/15/2005 5:27:46 PM
From: mistermj  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 281500
 
What does Adam's philosophy regarding the dangers of a democracy vs. a republic have to do with matters of conscience in determining whether to take actions that may violate the law?

You never answered my original question. I'll ask it again. Does the end justify the means for you?

As for why Adam's philosophy has any bearing on this...

I don't trust your version of "conscience" any more than you trust mine. Thats why we have laws.

We are not run by the short term whims of polls or mobs or "do-gooders" in the CIA who think they have a higher moral authority than our electorate or the "representative" leaders they elect.

You lost the last election...get over it. Start working in positive ways to win the next one.

THATS HOW IT WORKS ED.



To: cnyndwllr who wrote (175001)11/15/2005 8:35:11 PM
From: stockman_scott  Respond to of 281500
 
Cooking the Books and Politicizing Intelligence

By Larry C. Johnson*
t r u t h o u t | Perspective
Tuesday 15 November 2005

Like a passenger who just leaped from the Titanic into the icy waters of the North Atlantic, George Bush is frantically looking for a rescue boat. Understandably, he keeps pointing at the dinghy nearby - i.e., last year's report issued by former Senator Chuck Robb and Judge Laurence Silbermann under the title, "Final Report on Intelligence Capabilities of the United States Regarding Weapons of Mass Destruction." However, that boat don't float too good and Bush's credibility will continue, along with his Presidency, to sink beneath the weight of lies used to bamboozle America into a pre-emptive war.

Hopefully, most Americans will take time to read the report and understand the limitations of the Robb and Silbermann effort. While I agree with the commission's conclusion that analysts made mistakes, the Robb and Silbermann report clearly demonstrates that none of the intelligence analysis from the CIA suggested that Iraq's pursuit of weapons of mass destruction had reached a critical point requiring a pre-emptive strike.

Unfortunately, Robb and Silbermann want Americans to accept the nonsense that politics played no role in the intelligence analysis. They ask America to accept the sorry picture of a President and legislators who, apparently, were willing idiots being spoon-fed wrong information by incompetent analysts. If we accept this fairy tale we will have learned nothing from the fiasco in Iraq.

Consider what is presented in the chapter on the Iraq failure (which Robb and Silbermann concede is the most important issue). According to the report, the analysts said:

The pre-war estimate of Iraq's nuclear program, as reflected in the October 2002 NIE "Iraq's Continuing Programs for Weapons of Mass Destruction," was that, in the view of most agencies, Baghdad was "reconstituting its nuclear weapons program" and "if left unchecked, [would] probably have a nuclear weapon during this decade," although it would be unlikely before 2007 to 2009. The NIE explained that, in the view of most agencies, "compelling evidence" of reconstitution was provided by Iraq's "aggressive pursuit of high-strength aluminum tubes." The NIE also pointed to additional indicators, such as other dual-use procurement activity, supporting reconstitution. The assessment that Iraq was reconstituting its nuclear program and could therefore have a weapon by the end of the decade was made with "moderate confidence."

Play close attention. The analysts believed, incorrectly, that Iraq was reconstituting its nuclear program. But there were important caveats. First, Iraq would only have a nuke if left "unmolested" to develop such a capability. Did anyone see the words, "therefore Mr. President, you must invade?" Nope. Second, the analysts concluded that, even if left unmolested, Iraq would not have acquired a nuke until at least 2007. And how strong was this judgment? The analysts made it with "moderate confidence."

So, rather than restart or continue with inspections we now know were effective, President Bush opted for war. It was the policymakers, not the analysts, who made the decision to go to war and who oversold the October estimate to a gullible public.

I am not exonerating the CIA for its failures. There were major mistakes of leadership. For example, Robert Walpole, the man who led the drafting of the October 2002 estimate, surrounded himself with true believers who shared the view of Bush administration policymakers at the NSC and Department of Defense that military action in Iraq was required. This National Intelligence Officer did nothing to ensure that dissident voices within the CIA and other parts of the intelligence community were heard. But to pretend that the flaws in the intelligence explain why President Bush took us to war requires that we ignore a host of other uncomfortable facts.

CIA analysts got it right on the lack of operational relationship between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda. Yet, notwithstanding the correct judgment of the analysts, President Bush and Vice President Cheney have continued to insist that there was such a relationship. In their words, the war in Iraq was an extension of the war on terrorism.

Analysts also got it right in dismissing as nonsense the claim that Iraq was trying to buy yellowcake uranium in West Africa. The analysts who briefed Congress in October 2002 said there was no truth to the allegation. Yet, the White House wanted to run with it. We know that George Tenet had to call Stephen Hadley and Condi Rice to insist that a reference to the Iraq/Niger claim not be included in a speech the President planned to deliver in Cincinnati.

The CIA analysts consistently warned the administration that the information the Brits had also was unreliable and the reports of Iraq's trying to get its hands on a nuke were wrong. The director of WINPAC at the CIA, Alan Foley, repeatedly warned NSC official Robert Joseph that the Niger claim was unreliable. Undeterred, Joseph inserted the bogus 16 words into the President's 2003 State of the Union address.

But the policymakers did not want to hear it. In fact, Don Rumsfeld and his minions were briefing TV and newspaper pundits just two weeks before the President's 2003 State of the Union address that Iraq was trying to acquire uranium in Niger.

Here is the bottom line. There is no such thing as perfect intelligence or perfect analysis. However, we do not serve the security of this country by perpetuating the myth that we went to war in Iraq because a couple of analysts believed Saddam's acquisition of aluminum tubes was part of a secret program to build a nuke. Going to war was and remains a political decision made by a President.
_______________________________________________________

*Larry Johnson worked as a CIA intelligence analyst and State Department counter-terrorism official. He is a member of the Steering Group of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS).

truthout.org



To: cnyndwllr who wrote (175001)11/15/2005 9:26:41 PM
From: stockman_scott  Respond to of 281500
 
The Buck Should Stop You Know Where

By Norman Horowitz*

huffingtonpost.com

It was wonderful in some strange way to watch the President make the war OK because many Democrats agreed with his actions years ago.

The Democrats and Republicans gave him the authority to use force if necessary, that’s all, but the President alone took the action to go to war. He is the one who continues the war, and he will guide it, or stop it in the future.

The President's taking us into the war and saying that so many Democrats supported him would be like my setting fire to a building, and validating my actions at my trial by saying “but your honor, yes I did it, but many of my friends thought that it was a good idea, so how can I be blamed?”

THE PRESIDENT WAS/IS SOLELY RESPONSIBLE FOR TAKING OUR COUNRY INTO THIS WAR. Not John Edwards, not John Kerry, and not any other Democrat that supported the resolution. The war was undertaken under his authority, and is his responsibility, and his responsibility alone. Quoting from the Senate resolution “…The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to…” He was authorized to, not ordered to go to war.

The administration and the Congress received “bad information” from the CIA. Isn’t the CIA failure the responsibility of the Executive branch of government? Notwithstanding all of this, the President had ALL of the information, the Congress less than that.

The war that we are in has been orchestrated by the Secretary Of Defense and has gone badly. Isn’t the Secretary of Defense responsible for this? Isn’t the Executive branch of the government responsible for this as well?

I have heard the President's supporters say “ we went to war for valid reasons, and we must see it through until we win.” Try and communicate that logic to the over 100,000 of our men and women who died in Korea and Vietnam.

IT IS NOT OK THAT THE PRESIDENT REMAINS INTRACTABLE, AND WILL NOT DO ANYTHING DIFFERENT THAN WHAT HE STARTED TO DO, HOWEVER IT HAS TURNED OUT. SAYING THAT YOU TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR GOING TO WAR SHOULD NOT BE AN EMPTY STATEMENT TO BE USED WHEN ADDRESSING THE COUNTRY.

The President took us to war. (No question about that). We have had almost 18,000 casualties. (No question about that) and we have spent hundreds of billions of dollars on the war (No question about that). There is no end in sight.

This could be “a noble cause” that the President is pursuing, but why it is eludes me.

People continue being killed and wounded with no end in sight.

Please Mr. President, do something other than finding blame elsewhere. You have the sole authority to fix or ameliorate things. It appears that if you end the carnage, you believe that you are somehow dishonoring those who have served, been wounded, or been killed.

Not so Mr. President, not so! Honoring them would be to end the war, end the destruction, and end the casualties on both sides as quickly as possible.

JUST DO IT, AND DO IT NOW!

________________________________

*Norman Horowitz broad-based senior executive with almost 50 years of diverse media experience, he has been actively involved in all aspects of the telecommunications industry from the early days of worldwide television through the development of cable, satellite, internet, as well as other forms of digital delivery, (wireless, game platforms etc).

Mr. Horowitz was born in New York City in 1932. He served in the US Air Force during the Korean War as an Electronics Instructor. Following his air force service, he attended and graduated from the RCA Institute in New York with a degree in Electrical Engineering.