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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Hawkmoon who wrote (177725)12/11/2005 12:28:21 PM
From: jlallen  Respond to of 281500
 
Not according to all the reports I saw....Alipzar clearly claimed he had a bomb because he was being held on the plane and wanted off.....

J.



To: Hawkmoon who wrote (177725)12/11/2005 3:41:53 PM
From: Maurice Winn  Read Replies (4) | Respond to of 281500
 
Hawk, ignore jallen who makes things up. Here are some news reports. The air marshals had a hammer so all they could figure out was that the panicking guy was a nail. They must think humans are simple robots, who are never deaf, panicky, defiant, terrified of gun-toting murderous police, or any number of other human foibles which are no threat to anyone.

In free societies, the answer to stepping out of a very narrow circumscribed robot-like routine isn't death. We have a broader view of humanity.

In London, there were several police untruths about the Brazilian and his actions, so one needs to take a jaundiced view of what the police say and not just accept the first claims without corroboration and investigation.

Check out this statement for example: <Dave Adams, a spokesman for the Federal Air Marshal Service, said Alpizar had run up and down the plane's aisle yelling, "I have a bomb in my bag." >

That conflicts with all witnesses, other than the two police [disguised as civilians you should remember when it comes to considering the victim's responses]. <Passenger Mike Beshears recalled Alpizar running off the plane clutching a bag, chased by a man in a Hawaiian shirt. That man turned out to be one of the two air marshals >

The police of course have a vested interest in making their actions look reasonable and they no doubt had in their heads that he had a bomb, as any baggage does look like a bomb to the paranoid.

I have sat in the London underground in 1974 when the IRA was blowing things up, left right and centre, and bags all looked very much like bombs to me. If I was armed and responsible for stopping bombers, I'd have been pointing guns flat out at everyone who looked Irish [which was nearly everyone] with a bag or brief-case, demanding they open them up to show they were not a bomb - but wait, with suicide bombers, I'd have been having to just shoot them to stop them even detonating the damn things.

I can see how police sitting around with artillery all day, with "training", could develop a highly-strung paranoid mindset resulting in many "oops" circumstances.

So far, they have shot no terrorists, but two innocent passengers. This is not good progress.

I can see how police, thinking that there's a bomb in a bag and confronted with an obviously unhinged person could imagine that they heard the word "bomb". Schizophrenic people do hear voices in their heads. Imagination can be a powerful thing as shown by witnesses describing the same event saying outright contradictory things. That's even before dishonesty gets going, which is an instant later.

news.yahoo.com

<MIAMI - The airline passenger shot to death by federal marshals who said he made a bomb threat was agitated even before boarding and later appeared to be desperate to get off the plane, some fellow travelers said.

One passenger said he "absolutely never heard the word 'bomb' at all" during the uproar as the Orlando-bound flight prepared to leave Miami on Wednesday.

Federal officials say Rigoberto Alpizar made the threat in the jetway, after running up the plane's aisle from his seat at the back of the jetliner. They opened fire because the 44-year-old Home Depot employee ignored their orders to stop, reached into his backpack and said he had a bomb, according to authorities.

Alpizar's brother, speaking from Costa Rica, said he would never believe the shooting was necessary.

"I can't conceive that the marshals wouldn't be able to overpower an unarmed, single man, especially knowing he had already cleared every security check," Carlos Alpizar told The Orlando Sentinel.

Some passengers said they noticed Alpizar while waiting to get on the plane. They said he was singing "Go Down Moses" as his wife tried to calm him. Others said they saw him having lunch and described him as restless and anxious, but not dangerous.

"The wife was telling him, 'Calm down. Let other people get on the plane. It will be all right,'" said Alan Tirpak, a passenger.

Some passengers, including John McAlhany, said they believe Alpizar was no threat to anyone.

McAlhany, a 44-year-old construction worker who was returning home from a fishing trip in Key West, said he was sitting in Seat 21C when he noticed a commotion a few rows back.

"I heard him saying to his wife, 'I've got to get off the plane,'" McAlhany said. "He bumped me, bumped a couple of stewardesses. He just wanted to get off the plane." ...continued...
>

The White House says it was A-OK edition.cnn.com

The "b word". wireservice.wired.com Shhh, don't say the word BOMB. And DEFINITELY don't say "I have a bomb and intend to blow up the President" or the search engines in the NSA will light up like a Xmas tree. Hi guys!! Caught any terrorists lately or do you just cerf porn all day?

They are so dum they would assume that means blowing up King George II and come out shooting. No way. Aren't we going to bomb that Venezuelan President [according to one of Bush's buddies] and blow up the President of Al Jazeera, which says things we don't like in the free world, and also blow up the Iranian president who wants to blow up Israel and The Great Satan.

But even saying "Just why are you so worried about a bomb when you search the bags and bodies anyway?" could cause hysteria among aircrew who have never heard the actual "b word", and failed english comprehension at school so don't know what actual sentences mean. If they hear the b word, they start salivating like Pavlov's dogs and push the panic button and start shooting.

So far, air marshals have achieved zero on the positive ledger and killed an innocent guy. They should all be fired if they can't kill more evil-doers than innocent people.

I think air marshals should all be fired and get real jobs. There is never going to be another hijacking as the passengers will resist like crazy and security checks stop them getting on board.

While the dum air marshalls and homeland security focus on airlines, shutting the cockpit door after the horse has bolted through, Al Q will be working on other areas, which are unprotected. Which is obvious to anyone with the slightest imagination, which Americans don't have but Osama does, according to Condoleezza who said nobody could have imagined such an attack as 911.

Mqurice