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Politics : View from the Center and Left -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Dale Baker who wrote (7349)	12/18/2005 3:57:32 PM
From: Dale Baker	Respond to of 541877

transcripts.cnn.com ROHRABACHER: No, that's not -- Bob, you haven't read this. No, that's not hypothetical at all. One of the cases that was involved in this, was someone who was attempting to blow up the Brooklyn Bridge and because of these wire taps, we were able to stop that. BARR: No, you're wrong there, Dana. First of all -- ROHRABACHER: And by the way, how do we know who wasn't deterred from blowing up other targets. The fact is -- BARR: Well, gee, I guess then the president should be able to ignore whatever provision in the Constitution as long as there's something after the fact that justifies it. ROHRABACHER: Bob, during wartime, you give some powers to the presidency you wouldn't give in peace time. BARR: Do we have a declaration of war, Dana?..........Well, the fact of the matter is that the Constitution is the Constitution, and I took an oath to abide by it. My good friend, my former colleague, Dana Rohrabacher, did and the president did. And I don't really care very much whether or not it can be justified based on some hypothetical. The fact of the matter is that, if you have any government official who deliberately orders that federal law be violated despite the best of motives, that certainly ought to be of concern to us. ROHRABACHER: ............you just have to make sure that the people of the United States understand that we are at war. They understand that al Qaeda slaughtered 3,000 of our citizens -- more people than the Japanese slaughtered at Pearl Harbor. BARR: Here again, this is absolutely a bizarre conversation where you have a member of Congress saying that it's okay for the president of the United States to ignore U.S. law, to ignore the Constitution, simply because we are in an undeclared war. The fact of the matter is the law prohibits -- specifically prohibits -- what apparently was done in this case, and for a member of Congress to say, oh, that doesn't matter, I'm proud that the president violated the law is absolutely astounding, ROHRABACHER: Not only proud, we can be grateful to this president. You know, I'll have to tell you, if it was up to Mr. Schumer, Senator Schumer, they probably would have blown up the Brooklyn Bridge. The bottom line is this: in wartime we expect our leaders, yes, to exercise more authority. Now, I have led the fight to making sure there were sunset provisions in the Patriot Act, for example. So after the war, we go back to recognizing the limits of government. But we want to put the full authority that we have and our technology to use immediately to try to thwart terrorists who are going to -- how about have a nuclear weapon in our cities? BARR: And the Constitution be damned, Dana?

To: Dale Baker who wrote (7349)	12/18/2005 4:01:52 PM
From: Lane3	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 541877

The more I think about it, this thread serves more purpose as a relatively neutral meeting ground for right and left than it would as a strictly nonpartisan arena. IMO there is no such thing as a neutral meeting ground for partisans. Partisanship is naturally superficial. Sloganeering is something best done among one's fellows. A mixed sloganeering environment is still superficial, which doesn't support communication, respect, understanding, growth, etc., the things one would hope to get from a neutral arena.

To: Dale Baker who wrote (7349)	12/18/2005 5:14:20 PM
From: thames_sider	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 541877

a strictly nonpartisan arena Do you mean, an arena for those who are non-partisan? Actually I think that many who are such might be so because they just do not care... I'm not sure many people with no strong feelings about politics would even bother to read (still less post on) a political thread. For me, I got tired of the same repetitions of the same insults by people whose mindset seems to me impenetrable by reality - some (not just here but IRL) seem to hold views not merely despite the facts but in defiance of them... I find these people very, very boring to debate with, because they never concede, accept, understand or change. Far more of these are on the right than the left, I guess because outside the brainwashed of North Korea the communist/socialist viewpoint has been basically defeated as unsuitable for real humans, whereas the dogmas of the RW have yet to be proven quite so fallacious...