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To: Cogito Ergo Sum who wrote (4386)2/18/2006 1:48:36 AM
From: elmatador  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 218633
 
see no proof that anything but sugarcane, especially in Brazilian or other similar climates is really viable

But it is working...

Is like physicists saying a beetle can't fly. It is there in the aerodynamic calculations. But it flies...

what if economics is wrong:
Message 22148257

The brains are kicking in see syngenta!

Message 22177606

we were waiting for the US to jump into the bandwagon to give crtitical mass. Now with Bush speech things start moving



To: Cogito Ergo Sum who wrote (4386)2/18/2006 6:51:38 PM
From: Crabbe  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 218633
 
Perhaps you need to do a little more study.

Many byproducts of farming such as corn stover, wheat straw, rice straw, barnyard manure, etc. require only minor modification to present harvest procedures to be collected for alcohol production. For instance, have you ever observed a combine harvesting wheat and blowing the straw out the back on to the ground, a blower and chute, or even a collection cage and conveyor could easily load the straw to a truck or baler. Modification cost to a combine might be as low as a few to several thousand dollars. The payback could be as few as fifty acres harvested.

Modification to corn pickers might be slightly more expensive, but with from the ground up new construction of either (for replacement) probably would be little more expensive than existing models.

In the case of corn cobs, and rice straw, there is no increased collection costs as they are already collected in the harvest procedures, and have a negative cost as they presently require disposal such as burning, land fill, or composting.

The point with bio-mass is cellulose is a sugar, albeit a complex sugar that with out modification can not be fermented, with modifications that can be accomplished relatively inexpensively it can be fermented, hell it could be eaten as a food source, in any case it can be converted to alcohol at far less cost than producing and harvesting a crop just for fermentation.

In the case of rice straw, grass seed straw, sugar cane bagasse, municipal waste (both solid and liquid), manure, etc. it can be obtained at a negative cost. The waste product requiring disposal at costs that the producer has to pay for disposal.

Tonnage per acre of biomass far exceeds the tonnage of direct production of sugar per acre. The above mentioned crops can also be grown for alcohol production utilizing both the sugar/starch, and the cellulose at much higher production per acre.

As an example of what is possible with present technology using a different process from fermentation:

“We’re looking at 90 cents a gallon and this includes the profit paid to each farmer for delivering the baled stover to the production plant,” Russell said.

This biomass gasification process (pyrolysis) has great efficiencies, he said, noting that ethanol plants get about 100 gallons of ethanol from every ton of corn, while this system gets 214 gallons of ethanol from every ton of corn stover. Total corn acreage in the US is about 81,000,000 acres, multiplied by 214 is 17,334,000,000 gallons of ethanol just from corn stover.

Preliminary data show a $30 million to $35 million cost to build a biomass plant.

Production per year would be about 16,000,000 gallons of ethanol at a production cost including feed costs of $0.90 per gallon, at that rate payback on construction cost would be on the order of 3 years. Translate that to crude costs of about $1.43 per gallon @ $60 a barrel. Even at a reduced energy of about 20% less for ethanol, and add the cost of refining the crude to gasoline and the ethanol cost per gallon is far better than just competitive, and there are no balance of payment problems.

The above planned plant (September 26, 2005)
meadvilletribune.com

This plant could be duplicated in any corn growing county in the Midwest, the process could also be used for wheat straw, rice straw, hemp hurds (the biomass left after the fiber is extracted for the textile industry), etc..

Specialized crops such as miscanthus, already used as an energy crop in Europe because it has a production capability of 15 tons of biomass per acre, which converts to about $4,500 worth of ethanol per acre.

Converting food stocks to fuel is at best a temporary solution. Converting inedible biomass makes both environmental sense and economic sense. The US imports 12,000,000 barrels of oil daily, or 4,350,000,000 B/Y at a present cost of 265 billion per year, applying just a portion of that yearly cost to biomass conversion would eliminate that portion of the balance of payment deficit.

r



To: Cogito Ergo Sum who wrote (4386)2/18/2006 8:55:57 PM
From: Crabbe  Respond to of 218633
 
"I still see no proof that anything but sugarcane, especially in Brazilian or other similar climates is really viable except maybe sugar beets which is already subsidized for the production of edible sugar because it cannot compete with cane."

No one product or technology is going to replace America's or the World's dependence on oil.

Ethanol from biomass looks more and more like it could be a solution for transportation related fuels. Biodiesel is another particularly for the airline industry.

Atomic energy can be a safe and reliable source for electricity.

Solar is another viable solution for electricity, Walgreen's as an example will derive 40% of it's electricity in New Jersey and California from rooftop tiles at their local stores. 2500 watt generating panels are available at a cost of under $5,000 under $4,000 when all state and federal subsidies are considered. 2.5kw for 10 hours a day is a payback of $2.50 per day or about $900 per year for a payback of just over 4 years. Solar hot water is even cheaper, possibly as quick a payback of one or two years.

Federal regulation or subsidies may be required, at least for the transition. It seems from a little study that ethanol can be produced at $0.93 per gallon $1.16 per gallon of gasoline equivalent energy. With a federal subsidy of $0.51 per gallon, and with over 20 states adding state subsidy it would seem that ethanol can be priced at half the cost of energy from gasoline, or lower. Possible regulations are minimum percentage of fleet flex fuel vehicles. State requirements for flex fuel dispensing.

r