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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (183880)	3/21/2006 4:34:09 PM
From: neolib	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Declaration of Independence upon which the constitution is based. Because it expressly declares that mankind has natural rights. Unfortunately, when anyone states "We hold X to be self-evident", you can safely assume they like the idea, but can in no way defend why. One of the slight flaws in the DOI.

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (183880)	3/22/2006 12:14:13 PM
From: cnyndwllr	Read Replies (4) \| Respond to of 281500

So I guess you're not much of a believer in constitutional rights... nor the Declaration of Independence upon which the constitution is based. Because it expressly declares that mankind has natural rights. No, I believe in the constitutional rights of Americans-for Americans...but not that we have the obligation or the right to forcefully interfere in the affairs of another nation to facilitate our view of how their people should live. And, even if we tried, I don't think it would work. That's where we differ. You think we're somehow morally or religiously empowered to decide if other peoples of other cultures should live "free" or not. You think we should tell them how to treat their women. And even more stupidly, you think we have the POWER to accomplish those ends. And you're willing to spend other people's blood and fortune to try it. How's it going so far in Iraq and Afghanistan, Mr. pious missionary? How'd it work out in Vietnam? Which means that if you're willing to act to deny the rights of other people in countries far away, by supporting dictatorships and totalitarianist regimes (or at least tolerating them), then it's only a matter of time when you attempt to take rights away from people in the US. What? Don't start talking gobblygook and creating straw men out of thin air. It's not people like me who are a threat to "take rights away from people in the US." I don't believe that I have the right to make others adhere to my core belief system. I don't think I should "help" people to see the "right" light when they see a different light. I understand that when people make a choice that I don't agree with, that's their right and unless it impacts others of us directly and severely, it's none of my business. It's people with your fanatical missionary, pious and righteous views who want to use the terrible power of government to force others to conform to their patriotic-religious-moral views of how EVERYONE ought to behave. If you ran out of things to do in places like Iraq you'd turn your attention to the rest of us. Oh, wait, you're already trying to do that with gays, flag burners, atheists, agnostics...aren't you? And if you don't believe in them, then it's to be expected that you wouldn't be interested in fighting for them, either here, or anywhere else. But you're sure willing to ride on the coattails of those who did fight and die to preserve and expand them. I've fought my war. I have two purple hearts, a combat infantryman's badge and I'm what you'd call "highly decorated." How many wars have you fought in? How many times have you been wounded? How many guys have you seen go down in combat? How many times have you moved ahead knowing that you could die on the next step? Your posts reveal a city boy, spot on the map grasp of terrain and tactics. That's not going to get it. Your idea that we could have won the Vietnam war if we'd expanded it by invading Laos and Cambodia tells me all I need to know about your real world experience in battle. We're all riding on the coattails of a lot of good soldiers who've gone before and we should all appreciate that, but the fact that you're a war wimp doesn't make you a part of that, not even a little bit. And it doesn't make you wise nor tough, either. Yeah.. for you, all "ISMS" have some merit.. Such a moral relativistic foundation upon which to rest your political views. Sure, all the ISMs have SOME merit. What of it? My choice is to live in a democracy and to work to keep it. It doesn't automatically persevere you know. In fact, right now we're seeing it start to erode more quickly than at any time in the last century thanks to people who think like you and the Bush Administration. And, yes, I'd like to see other people adopt benevolent, democratic forms of government. The difference is that I believe THEY have to want that enough to fight to have it and preserve it and I don't think that we can, or should, use our own force to make that happen. They must find their own paths. Every culture is different and the world is a big place. Who knows, maybe their path will lead someplace new and, for them, better. Only die hard conservatives believe that what "is" will always be better than what "might be." The bottom line is that you're way out there on the righteous scale. You're also fanatical in your beliefs and willing to kill others and sacrifice our young to impose on others in the world what you see as "God given." I'm willing to kill and sacrifice our young to DEFEND our way of life for us but not for the purpose of imposing it on a population that's not committed to fighting and dying for it themselves. That's a moral difference but even if I thought like you (shudder) I'd at least be smart enough to understand that in the final analysis I didn't have the power to force my views on other cultures. In other words, I'd stop pushing that string. Unfortunately, the lack of insight that allowed you to form your narrow, egocentric views is so pervasive that it won't allow you to comprehend what the real world is telling you. Yes, you're much like our President and the ensuing toll in death, destruction and loss of American power continues to accrue. Congratulations. Ed