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Politics : Israel to U.S. : Now Deal with Syria and Iran -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Cyprian who wrote (10594)	4/7/2006 3:17:15 PM
From: sea_urchin	Read Replies (4) \| Respond to of 22250

Cyprian > If you are irreligious, would it be accurate to say that you do not believe in God? And if you do not believe in God, that you reject the concept of heaven and hell as well? I do not "believe" in God although I certainly accept there are many/most things on this earth I do not understand. There are also many things which happen which are unforeseen and unpredictable. But because my puny mind can't understand all this does not mean I have to "believe" in anything. > And if you do not believe in God, that you reject the concept of heaven and hell as well? I believe heaven and hell are right here on this earth and most people actually live in hell and spend their lives dreaming of coming out of it. > If you do not accept the concept that after our brief earthly sojourn, that one is sent eternally either to heaven or hell, then what is the basis for your rejection of Zionism? I understand, or believe I understand, the reasons for Zionism but, since I don't believe that the Jewish religion gave them the right to take the land by tricks or force, I would argue that Zionism is no different from any colonial enterprise and therefore subject to the same criticism. Therefore, I believe that if Jews, or whoever, want to live in the Holy Land they should live side-by-side with the others who live there and not try to establish an exclusive enclave for themselves. > from where do you form your basis for morality? From your parents? The society in which you happen to live? Global society as a whole? From what? That's an interesting question. As far as I am concerned morality is subjective to each person and, as far as society is concerned, it is more beneficial to oneself to lead a generally moral existence than an immoral one. Thus I would argue that "do unto others" is the basis of morality and one doesn't have to be a Christian or what purports to be a Christian to accept that or to live by that code. > What moral basis informs you that Zionism is evil and must be opposed in the first place? Zionism isn't evil any more or less than any other human pursuit is. But from a purely practical point of view, since the State of Israel is now a fait accompli Zionism has no purpose. Further, and with my limited knowledge of course, I would argue that the Jewish religion now also has no purpose. > if no one has to give account in the afterlife for what he has done here in his present life, why spend your precious and short lifetime fighting against a cause which you can do little about? I believe we are accountable in this life for what we do, if only to ourselves. Further, I find it interesting and enjoyable, one might even call it occupational therapy, to debate world affairs with others. More than that, I have no agenda. > You admit that the Zionists have great power do you not? A Zionist President Bush has captured the White House for two terms now. Why not join the Zionist cause in exchange for worldly benefits which I am sure the Zionists are prepared to shower upon you for your submission or acquiescence? Many do just that. I'm a strange person in that I generally take the side of the underdog in an argument. Why that is, I don't know? So, in the present Israeli/Palestinian polemic I take the Palestinian side, and that's not because I'm particularly fond of Palestinians or Moslems or even anti-Jewish or anti-Israel, it's just my nature to be like this. Basically, I would just like the matter settled FAIRLY and then let everyone get on with their lives. > if you are an atheist and don't believe you will have to give account for your actions in any way shape or form in the next life, why not just worry about how to make your life as pleasurable as possible while preserving it as long as possible? I have had this debate with many people including a rabbi and I totally reject the thesis that "goodness" flows only from "belief" or "fear of a higher authority". I believe people answer to their own authority and if their nature is "good" then they will be "good" and if they are "bad" then no amount of religious indoctrination or false piety will change that. Hence one finds both "good" and "bad" people everywhere.