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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (186302)	5/8/2006 1:40:17 AM
From: sylvester80	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

There is another way you pinhead rather than polluting our environment to the point of extinction and depleting the resources that we have. It's called CONSERVATION and it's called ALTERNATIVE NON-FOSSILE ENERGY SOURCES!!!! So just because greedy moron oil pigs like you want to pollute the earth to the point of human extinction (global warming), or to selfishly deplete all our resources for their greedy pockets, it doesn't mean that it's the only way, you ignorant pinhead.

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (186302)	5/8/2006 9:31:59 AM
From: Wharf Rat	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

Hydrogen is a disaster... People in the energy world have formalized this measure of “energy return on energy invested” with an acronym, EROEI, made up of the first letter of each word in the phrase. So the EROEI of the gas made from the oil squirting out of the ground in our front yard is 125:1. EROEI turns out to be one of the most important measurements in the history of humanity. =========================== EROEI (Energy Return on Energy Invested) for Various Fuels Biodiesel- 3:1 Coal- 1:1 to 10:1 Ethanol- 1.2:1 Natural Gas- 1:1 to 10:1 Hydropower- 10:1 HYDROGEN- 0.5:1 Nuclear- 4:1 Oil- 1:1 to 100:1 Oil Sands- 2:1 Solar PV (2) - 1:1 to 10:1 Wind (2) - 3:1 to 20:1 Message 22350997 involved in producing any energy product. In addition, even the scientific studies done on EROEI for specific energy sources vary widely in their results. But the imprecision notwithstanding, the general ratios are highly informative. Look, for example, at the energy return for HYDROGEN. It is negative, less than one. HYDROGEN is not an energy source, it is an energy sink, a carrier, like a battery. It takes more energy to produce and store free HYDROGEN than one gets back when it is utilized as a fuel. Also consider biodiesel and ethanol; their energy profit ratios are very low. In spite of this you will hear everyone from the president of the United States to the governor of Washington State touting them as the fuels of the future. It will not be possible to run society as we know it today, which is driven by the very high energy profit ratio of petroleum, on the low EROEI offered by biodiesel and ethanol. Not that these fuels might not be useful, but they will be useful only to a society that has adapted to living on a lower energy budget. If you understand EROEI, you know more about energy than either President Bush or Governor Gregoire. Perhaps you will be able to teach them a few things. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Footnotes: 1 The fact that the monetary value place on energy resources bears little or no relationship to the energy content of a given resource shows how perverse modern economics has become. Energy writer Hazel Henderson has called modern economics “a form of brain disease” because it is completely disconnected from the physical realities of the earth. 2 Wind and solar power have the potential to offer respectable EROEI ratios and should be very helpful in our energy transition. They cannot though help us out of the near-term challenges we face of having agricultural and transport systems that require very large amounts of petroleum, the global production of which is soon to peak, and then decrease annually. Dana Visalli is an independent consulting field biologist/ecologist living and working in northcentral Washington. He is the vice-president of a watershed-based non-profit organization called The Partnership for a Sustainable Methow that is interested in lifestyles based on ecological reality. He has traveled to Iraq twice in the past 4 years in an effort first to prevent the U.S. invasion of that country, and then to bring to the attention of the American people the nature of the unfolding disaster there. Published on 12 Apr 2006 by Partnership for a Sustainable Methow. Archived on 13 Apr 2006. energybulletin.net