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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Sun Tzu who wrote (187347)	5/25/2006 12:12:28 PM
From: michael97123	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Sun, I profoundly disagree with you on the semi-revisionism on WW2, however lets not have the holocaust debate redux. Your 2003 iranian initiative looks like it could have merit. You say a window is opening now. This is not clear to me. Can you elaborate on that and how the new pres figure in all of this given his rhetoric.

To: Sun Tzu who wrote (187347)	5/25/2006 12:16:19 PM
From: Nadine Carroll	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

Firstly, at the time the letter was sent there was a very moderate president and a reformist parliament in charge There was a reformist president, but not in charge. Khatamei could not enact any of his reforms, and the mullahs remained firmly in charge. And that "reformist" parliament consisted of candidates approved by the mullahs - who scrubbed any real reformers from the ballot. And thirdly, you need to investigate the role of the British in Holocaust better No, I don't, and you are turning the subject from the causes of the whole war. At one point, FDR asked Churchill what they should call the war, and Churchill growled, "the unnecessary war". It could have been stopped at far lower cost had the democracies mustered the will to stop Hitler in 1934 or 1936 or 1938. They chose instead to believe that negotiations would save them the trouble. Hitler played them like a violin.

To: Sun Tzu who wrote (187347)	5/25/2006 1:42:47 PM
From: Hawkmoon	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

Even under Hitler there was no need for the 6M to die. There were several Nazi plans to build a Jewish homeland away from Germany and a leading contender was Palestine. The British blocked the way. Later in the war, there was also another plan to simply deport the Jews, but Churchill thought the mass arrival of Jews on the British Empire's doorstep would embarrass the government and so he blocked it. Oh I see.. blame the British for the success of Hitler's "final solution".. I wonder how the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem would have reacted to such a plan of having 6 million Jews shipped to Palestine. What should we have done.. declared a truce in the war so all of these people could be shipped to the Mid-East?? My sense is the British government was just happy to avoid being invaded. They last thing they would have wanted to do further enrage the Arabs in Palestine.. And I'm sure Hitler was none too keen on providing the Allies a prospective 1 million able bodied men who could take up arms against him. Why don't we just assign the blame for the holocaust where it belongs. There was no reason Hitler had to undertake such a morally reprehensible action. Hawk

To: Sun Tzu who wrote (187347)	5/29/2006 3:59:29 PM
From: sylvester80	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

'THE ISRAEL PROBLEM' From Israel/Palestinian Conflict to 9/11 to the 'Clash of Civilizations' MER - MiddleEast.Org - Washington - 27 May: What can be called 'The Israel Problem' has quite a long history for the Americans and indeed for the whole world. Had this problem been properly dealt with in decades past it is likely we would have a far better and far less confrontational world today. Indeed 'The Israel Problem' has terribly poisoned U.S. relations with the Arab and Muslim worlds for the past two generations, and it was for sure of the major factors leading to 9/11 and what has become today the 'Clash of Civilizations'. While the Israelis are considerably responsible for what has happened; so are the Americans considerably culpable for allowing things to transpire as they have and indeed for facilitating Israel policies with great amounts of money, armaments, and political cover. Today we learn from a just made public 1975 Henry Kissinger memo that thirty years ago the Americans were well aware of the dangers posed by Israeli policies and wanted to do something to essentially put the small Jewish State into a more normal and reasonably limited relationship in the overall scheme of world affairs. But largely because of powerful 'Israel Lobby' efforts by Kissinger and subsequent Administrations have all failed and 'The Israel Problem' has not only horribly metasticized but is more negatively consequential and more dangerously out of control than ever. '75 Kissinger memo discounted Israel By Calvin Woodward ASSOCIATED PRESS Published May 27, 2006 The United States reached out to hostile Arabs three decades ago with an offer to work toward making Israel a "small friendly country" of no threat to its neighbors and with an assurance to Iraq that the U.S. had stopped backing Kurdish rebels in the north. "We can't negotiate about the existence of Israel," then-Secretary of State Henry Kissinger told his Iraqi counterpart in a rare high-level meeting, "but we can reduce its size to historical proportions." A December 1975 memo detailing Mr. Kissinger's probing conversation with Foreign Affairs Minister Saadoun Hammadi eight years after Iraq severed diplomatic relations with Washington is included in some 28,000 pages of Kissinger-era foreign policy papers published in an online collection yesterday. George Washington University's National Security Archive released the collection, drawn from papers available at the government's National Archives and obtained through the group's Freedom of Information requests. In it, Mr. Kissinger tells Chinese Premier Zhou Enlai in June 1972 that the United States, mired in Vietnam, probably could live with a communist government in South Vietnam as long as that evolved peacefully. "If we can live with a communist government in China, we ought to be able to accept it in Indochina," he said. He also hints that the United States, newly courting China, would consider a nuclear response if the Soviets were to overrun Asia with conventional forces. At the time, Chinese-Soviet tensions were sharp and the United States was playing one communist state against the other as best it could while seeking detente with its main rival, Moscow. The transcript of Mr. Kissinger's meeting with Mr. Hammadi in Paris sheds light on a little-known maneuver that spoke to America's broader effort to win friends in the Arab world even as it was giving military support to the Jewish state. The meeting was frank and open -- diplomats' preferred description of any such meeting but in this case, true. And Mr. Hammadi, a friend of the Soviets, was a tough sell. "We are on the other side of the fence," Mr. Hammadi asserted. "What the United States is doing is not to create peace but to create a situation dominated by Israel." Mr. Kissinger pressed: "Our attitude is not unsympathetic to Iraq. Don't believe; watch it." He said U.S. public opinion was turning more pro-Palestinian and U.S. aid to Israel could not be sustained for much longer at its massive levels. He predicted that in 10 or 15 years, "Israel will be like Lebanon -- struggling for existence, with no influence in the Arab world." Mindful of Israel's nuclear capability, a skeptical Mr. Hammadi peppered Mr. Kissinger with questions, including whether Washington would recognize Palestinian identity and even a Palestinian state. "Is it in your power to create such a thing?" Mr. Kissinger said he could not make recognition of Palestinian identity happen right away but, "No solution is possible without it." "After a settlement, Israel will be a small friendly country," he said. Mr. Kissinger said U.S. officials had believed Iraq was a Soviet satellite state but had come to a "more sophisticated understanding now. We think you are a friend of the Soviet Union but you act on your own principles." Saddam Hussein was then vice president, in control of internal security and oil. When Mr. Hammadi persisted with complaints about U.S. support for the Kurds, Mr. Kissinger brushed them off by saying, "One can do nothing about the past." "Not always," Mr. Hammadi countered as the meeting closed and he escorted Mr. Kissinger to the door. Washington and Baghdad renewed relations after the start of the Iran-Iraq war; Mr. Hammadi became prime minister in the Saddam era. The collection, also available in microfiche, consists of some 2,100 memorandums of Mr. Kissinger's secret conversations with senior officials abroad and at home from 1969 to 1977, serving under presidents Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford. William Burr, senior analyst for the research group, said the papers are the most extensive published record of Mr. Kissinger's work, in many instances offering insight into matters that the diplomat ignored or merely touched on in his prolific memoirs.