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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: GST who wrote (190001)	6/23/2006 11:08:56 AM
From: Sun Tzu	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

From an old post of mine: Message 20790668 I get the impression that you think of yourself as a patriot. I have to wonder a patriot of what nation? There are two Americas, and perhaps there have always been two Americas. There is the America that was founded on belief in justice, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. The one that believes that there are inalienable rights. That all men are created equal. An America that fights slavery and believes in democracy and justice for all. It is a moral entity that believes in tolerance. It is a conservative (in the true meaning of the word) that believes in personal responsibility; it says, give me a level playing field and we let the chips fall where they may. It is also a generous and compassionate entity. Then there is another America. The one that was founded based on greed and built by a bunch of hoodlums and robber barons. An America that would murder native inhabitants and give women and children small pox laden blankets. Then would drive the buffalo towards extinction just to starve the indians and puts a price on their scalp. An America for whom the pursuit of the almighty dollar is next to godliness and goes to Philippines to massacre anyone over 10M just to have access to new markets. The one that thinks nothing of dropping an atomic bomb on civilians, then does it again a few days later just to experiment and observe the different affects of a plutonium bomb versus uranium bomb. The two are not reconcilable. Which America are you part of? You keep saying my tribe right or wrong. But which one is your tribe? How do you define being American? Saudis and Palestinians can stick to the kind of tribalism you talk of; they are mostly racially pure. But here you cannot claim some form of genetic make up for your tribalism. Nor is there a king where loyalty to whom can be defined as the allegiance. So what is the mark of an American? Is it just a passport? I think not; An American is anyone who stands loyal and true to the American ideals. But which ideals? Make your choice which America you want to be part of. Sun Tzu

To: GST who wrote (190001)	6/23/2006 1:27:59 PM
From: Brumar89	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

I make a specific challenge to you and repeat it. I tell you I believe you were and are a traitor who sold your country out to the Chinese Communists. And all you can do is post some vapid slogans you don't mean. You demean words and phrases like "honest", "moral", "moral, "honor" just by typing them. I will just remind everyone reading this you were forced to admit on this thread that previous posts were lies.

To: GST who wrote (190001)	6/23/2006 1:32:16 PM
From: Hawkmoon	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

Your views reflect a weak America -- a morally bankrupt America that relies on the use of military force instead of providing global leadership -- a weak America that promotes fear to justify using falsehoods to promote military invasions, to justify false imprisonment and to justify torture -- a weak America that cannot tell the truth for fear that Americans would throw the bums out of their elected and appointed offices if the truth was known. Were you ever spanked as a child? Have you ever spanked your own children when they were bad and didn't follow the "values" you were trying to impose upon them (regardless of the moral justifications you had for holding your children to them)?? Were you ever spanked by the principle in school? Put in the corner and segregated from the rest of your "society" (classmates)? Is that not a form of "torture"? Leaders can speak of lofty values all they want. But there are ALWAYS going to be those who believe the societal rules that are established by the MEMBERS of that society (via legislation, elections.. etc) do not apply to them. These violators will consistently attempt to circumvent those rules and take advantage of society at large in order to advance their own power, prestige, and wealth. Thus, are you saying that we should merely speak of grandiose human values, but take no punitive action to prevent violators from ignoring, or even attempting to destroy, those societal values? Now transpose this to an international level and ask yourself why we should tolerate violations of international norms of societal behavior (elections, accountable government, and just plain individual rights to form a rule of law by which they wish to establish societal order)? Alas.. were we merely able to take intransigent political leaders and take them out to the "woodshed" for a good thrashing.. Unfortunately, on an international level the rules are a bit more ruthless and people wind up dying because we've permitted such megalo-maniaccal sociopaths to rise to power without concerted international condemnation and confrontation. And because we're unwilling to seriously and forcefully confront them before they've progressed from a "petty thief" to an "organized criminal", or "evil genius" (ala James Bond), we find ourselves forced later to exert a pound of cure, when an ounce of prevention might have sufficed. Hawk