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Politics : View from the Center and Left -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Mary Cluney who wrote (24732)	7/21/2006 6:34:29 PM
From: TimF	Respond to of 541485

Mary, virtually everyone agrees with me. I think that is the problem <gggg>. I know you included multiple grins but - If a lot of people didn't agree that it was ok to violently defend yourself things would be even worse. They might get better if nearly everyone agreed that it was not ok to use violence at all (although its possible a tiny minority could institute a dictatorship over all, or just take whatever it wanted and be criminal with impunity, either of which would be much worse), and it probably would be better if EVERYONE accepted the idea of non-violence, but you won't get EVERYONE to accept any idea.

To: Mary Cluney who wrote (24732)	7/21/2006 6:38:25 PM
From: Ilaine	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 541485

I suppose if everybody who was being threatened with violent death would just curl up and die, quietly, meekly, and politely, the world would be a much quieter and more peaceful place, the peace of the grave. Unfortunately the torture victims and rape victims would make a lot of noise, but eventually they'd probably quiet down, too. And you could contemplate your garden in tranquility.

To: Mary Cluney who wrote (24732)	7/21/2006 6:47:55 PM
From: Lane3	Respond to of 541485

I did some googling and found this: "Different from the Methodist and Presbyterian views is the Roman Catholic view which is stated in terms of "just war" and is also applicable to personal self-defense: Victims "have a right and even a duty to protect their existence and freedom" (Pope John Paul II) for, though even defensive violence will ever be "a sad necessity in the eyes of men principled, yet it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." (St. Augustine) Thus the Catholic view allows (or perhaps even requires) lethal force (necessary) to preserve the victim's life against murder." hoboes.com Also found this: For Augustine says to Publicola (Ep. xlvii): "I do not agree with the opinion that one may kill a man lest one be killed by him; unless one be a soldier, exercise a public office, so that one does it not for oneself but for others, having the power to do so, provided it be in keeping with one's person." newadvent.org Not curious enough to do any further work. Edit: OK, one more. "Origin of the "Just War" Most authors agree that "St. Augustine was the originator of the Just War Theory."(2) When it came to individual self-defense, St. Augustine contended that one's own life or property was never a justification for killing one's neighbor. Christian charity was the motivating force behind this statement. But when one speaks of rulers of nations they have the obligation to maintain peace. This obligation gives them the right to wage war. He says, "'The natural order conducive to peace among mortals demands that the power to declare and counsel war should be in the hands of those who hold the supreme authority.'"(3) Those subject to the rulers must obey unless they command something against a Divine Law. For St. Augustine the only reason for waging a war would be to defend the nation's peace against serious injury. He says, "'A just war is wont to be described as one that avenges wrongs, when a nation or state has to be punished, for refusing to make amends for the wrongs inflicted by its subjects, or to restore what it has seized unjustly.'"(4) The intention of the war is very important for St. Augustine. He says, "'The passion for inflicting harm, the cruel thirst for vengeance, an unpacific and relentless spirit, the fever of revolt, the lust of power, and such things, all these are rightly condemned in war.'"(5) St. Augustine emphasizes the idea of restoration of peace as the main motive of war. He says, "'We do not seek peace in order to be at war, but we go to war that we may have peace. Be peaceful, therefore, in warring, so that you may vanquish those whom you war against, and bring them to the prosperity of peace.'"(6) So in St. Augustine's thinking a war "was limited by its purpose, its authority and its conduct."(7)" monksofadoration.org