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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (197298)8/14/2006 4:22:09 PM
From: Katelew  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
Nice try, Nadine.

So even though both the Ha'aretz and JPost are whining about Israel's pitiful showing in this event, in reality these papers are cheering Israel as a victor!!!



To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (197298)8/14/2006 4:24:15 PM
From: kumar  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Hezbollah claims victory against Israel
{Ignore much of the hyperbole below, but the guy's right when he says : "The Lebanese army and international troops are incapable of protecting Lebanon,".}

By LAUREN FRAYER and KATHY GANNON, Associated Press Writers 55 minutes ago

Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah said Monday that his guerrillas achieved a "strategic, historic victory" against Israel — a declaration that prompted celebratory gunfire across the Lebanese capital.

Israel's prime minister, however, maintained the offensive eliminated the "state within a state" run by Hezbollah in southern Lebanon.

Lebanese civilians jammed onto roads to stream back to war-ravaged areas Monday after a the cease-fire halted the fighting that claimed more than 900 lives.

For the first time in a month, no rockets were fired into northern Israel, but few Israelis who fled the war were seen returning and Israel's government advised them to stay away for now.

Nasrallah said Hezbollah "came out victorious in a war in which big Arab armies were defeated (before)."

"We are today before a strategic, historic victory, without exaggeration," Nasrallah said. He spoke on the day a cease-fire took effect — ending 34 days of deadly fighting between Hezbollah and Israel. Nasrallah called Monday "a great day."

Now was not the time to debate the disarmament of his guerrilla fighters, Nasrallah asserted.

"Who will defend Lebanon in case of a new Israeli offensive?" he asked. "The Lebanese army and international troops are incapable of protecting Lebanon," he said, flanked by Lebanese and Hezbollah flags.

But Nasrallah said he was open to dialogue about Hezbollah's weapons at the appropriate time. And he credited his group's weapons with proving to Israel that "war with Lebanon will not be a picnic. It will be very costly."

"The main goal of Israel in this war has been to remove Hezbollah's weapons. This will not happen through destroying homes... It will come through discussion," Nasrallah said.

Israeli soldiers reported killing six Hezbollah fighters in four skirmishes in southern Lebanon after the guns fell silent, highlighting the tensions that could unravel the peace plan.

Lebanese, Israeli and U.N. officers met on the border to discuss the withdrawal of Israeli forces from southern Lebanon and the deployment of the Lebanese army in the region, U.N. spokesman Milos Strugar said.

The meeting, the first involving a Lebanese army officer and a counterpart from Israel since Israeli forces withdrew from Lebanon in 2000, marked the first step in the process of military disengagement as demanded by a U.N. Security Council resolution.

The fighting persisted until the last minutes before the cease-fire took effect Monday morning, with Israel destroying an antenna for Hezbollah's TV station and Hezbollah guerrillas clashing with Israeli troops near the southern city of Tyre and the border village of Kfar Kila.

Israeli warplanes struck a Hezbollah stronghold in eastern Lebanon and a Palestinian refugee camp in the south, killing two people, and Israeli artillery pounded targets across the border through the night.

After the cease-fire took effect, lines of cars — some loaded with mattresses and luggage — snaked slowly around bomb craters and ruined bridges as residents began heading south to find out what is left of their homes and businesses.

Humanitarian groups also sent convoys of food, water and medical supplies into the south, but the clogged roads slowed the effort. U.N. officials said 24 U.N. trucks took more than five hours to reach the port of Tyre from Sidon, a trip that normally takes 45 minutes.

Israel had not lifted its threat to destroy any vehicle on most southern roads, a ban designed to keep arms from getting to Hezbollah fighters, but there were no signs it was being enforced.

Capt. Jacob Dallal, a military spokesman, said the Israeli army was urging Lebanese civilians to stay out of the south until Lebanese troops and U.N. peacekeepers moved in to oversee the cease-fire.

"There are lots of Israeli troops and Hezbollah fighters. For their own safety, we advise them (civilians) not to go," Dallal said.

But Israeli Defense Minister Amir Peretz said at midafternoon that aside from the isolated skirmishes with Hezbollah, the cease-fire was holding and could have implications for future relations with Israel's neighbors.

In some places in the south, the rubble was still smoldering from a barrage of Israeli airstrikes just before the cease-fire took effect at 8 a.m. (1 a.m. EDT).

"I just want to find my home," said Ahmad Maana, who went back to Kafra, about five miles from the Israeli border, where whole sections of the town were flattened.

In Beirut's southern suburbs, a Hezbollah stronghold, people wrapped their faces with scarves as wind kicked up dust from the wreckage left by Israeli bombardments. Ahmed al-Zein poked through the ruins of his shop.

"This was the most beautiful street in the neighborhood," he said. "Now it's like an earthquake zone."

There were no reports of Israeli strikes on cars — a sign Israel did not want to risk rekindling the conflict. But at least one child was killed and 15 people were wounded by ordnance that detonated as they returned to their homes in the south, security officials said.

The rush to return came despite a standoff that threatened to keep the cease-fire from taking root. Israeli forces remain in Lebanon, and Nasrallah said the militia would consider them legitimate targets until they leave.

In his speech, Nasrallah also promised to help the Lebanese rebuild.

Still, the truce ushered in a calm that the border region had not seen for more than a month.

Stores that had been closed for weeks began to reopen in Haifa, Israel's third largest city and a frequent target of Hezbollah rockets, and a few people returned to the beaches.

In Kiryat Shemona, where more than half the population fled during the war, streets were mostly empty but traffic lights winked on again. The few grocery stores that braved more than 700 rockets on the town were still the only places for food, with restaurants and cafes shut.

Residents stirred from their bomb shelters, but there was no influx of returning refugees.

"People are still scared," Haim Biton, 42, said, predicting things would not get back to normal soon. "You don't know what's going to happen."

"The city is still in a coma," said Shoshi Bar-Sheshet, the deputy manager of a mortgage bank. Getting back to normal "doesn't happen overnight," she said.

The next step in the peace effort — sending in a peacekeeping mission — appeared days away.

A Lebanese Cabinet minister told Europe-1 radio in France that Lebanese soldiers could move into the southern part of the country as early as Wednesday. In Paris, the French foreign ministry said a U.N. peacekeeping force should be mobilized "as quickly as possible."

The U.N. plan calls for a joint Lebanese-international force to move south of the Litani River, about 18 miles from the Israeli border, and stand as a buffer between Israel and Hezbollah militiamen.

"The Lebanese army is readying itself along the Litani to cross the river in 48 to 72 hours," said Lebanese Communications Minister Marwan Hamade.

A United Nations force that now has 2,000 observers in south Lebanon is due to be boosted to 15,000 soldiers, and Lebanon's army is to send in a 15,000-man contingent.

France and Italy, along with predominantly Muslim Turkey and Malaysia, have signaled willingness to contribute troops to the peacekeeping force, but consultations are needed on the force's makeup and mandate. Italian Foreign Minister Massimo D'Alema said Italy's troops could be ready within two weeks.

The French commander of the current U.N. force, Maj. Gen. Alain Pellegrini, said additional troops are needed quickly because the situation remains fragile. The region is "not safe from a provocation, or a stray act, that could undermine everything," he told The Associated Press.

Officials said Israeli troops would begin pulling out as soon as the Lebanese and international troops start deploying to the area. But it appeared Israeli forces were staying put for now. Some exhausted soldiers left early Monday and were being replaced by fresh troops.

Israel also would maintain its air and sea blockade of Lebanon to prevent arms from reaching Hezbollah guerrillas, Israeli army officials said.

The Israeli army reported scattered skirmishes with Hezbollah militiamen.

Officials said four militia fighters were killed in two clashes near the town of Hadatha when armed men approached Israeli troops three hours after the cease-fire began. Later clashes occurred near the towns of Farun and Shama, with one guerrilla killed in each, officials said.

"They were very close, they were armed, and they did pose a danger to the troops," said Dallal, the military spokesman. "We're going to shoot anybody who poses an imminent threat to the troops."

Both Hezbollah and Israel claimed they came out ahead in the conflict.

Hezbollah distributed leaflets congratulating Lebanon on its "big victory" and thanking citizens for their patience during the fighting, which began July 12 when guerrillas killed three Israeli soldiers and captured two others in a cross-border raid.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert told Israel's parliament that the offensive eliminated the "state within a state" run by Hezbollah and restored Lebanon's sovereignty in the south. Peretz, the defense minister, said the war opened a window for negotiations with Lebanon and renewed talks with Palestinians.

But many Israelis were upset by the high casualties during 34 days of fighting, and Benjamin Netanyahu, head of the opposition Likud Party, told lawmakers there were many failures in the war. Olmert acknowledged there were "deficiencies" in the way the war was conducted.

"We will have to review ourselves in all the battles," Olmert said. "We won't sweep things under the carpet."

Lebanon said nearly 791 people were killed in the fighting. Israel said 116 soldiers and 39 civilians died in combat or from Hezbollah rockets.

___

Associated Press writers Arthur Max in Jerusalem and Zeina Karam in Beirut, Lebanon, contributed to this report.

Copyright © 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.
Copyright © 2006 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
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To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (197298)8/14/2006 5:41:09 PM
From: jttmab  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Netanyahu is just beaming with glee over the successful Israeli operation....

There were many failures in the management of the Lebanon offensive according to Israeli opposition leader and head of the Likud Party, Benjamin Netanyahu.

Following Prime Minister Ehud Olmert’s first speech to the Israeli parliament since the early days of the offensive, Mr Netanyahu criticised the war for its many failures.

“It must be said, honestly, there were many failures, failures in identifying the threat, failures in preparing to meet the threat, failures in the management of the war, failures in the management of the home front,” he said. “Without doubt we shall need later on to learn the lessons and fix the mistakes.”

Olmert acknowledged there were “deficiencies” in the way the war was conducted with scores of soldiers and civilians killed in the 34 days of fighting.

“We will have to review ourselves in all the battles,” he said. “We won’t sweep things under the carpet.”

Anticipating that another war with Hezbollah may come in the future, he said Israel will learn the lessons of this war and “do better”.

eecho.ie



To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (197298)8/15/2006 12:08:00 AM
From: el_gaviero  Respond to of 281500
 
Form: AIPAC Internet information division
To: Nadine Carroll

Re: “el gaviero”

Dear Nadine:

You are one of our best internet posters, and we pay you at the highest level for a reason: you do a good job.

However, my attention has been called to one of your latest efforts, a post to “el gaviero,” number 197273 on the Silicon Investors chat thread, "Foreign Affairs Discussion Group."

It is my painful duty to report that this post is not up to your usual standards.

Before addressing the heart of the problem, let me first start with what we like. In your response to “el gaviero” you ignore the essence of his charge, which is that Israel has been acting like a bully – brutal with the weak while ineffectual in direct confrontation with armed courage. The difficulty of refuting his charge is that there is so much evidence in support of it, and you are right to ignore the whole matter. Your judgment about what to respond to and what to ignore is good, which is why we pay you at the highest level for the kind of work you do.

Now to what we don’t like about your post.

Your point about Israel occupying Lebanon up to the Litani River is weak. If we are successful, and hold the ground up to the Litani, we are viewed as occupiers. If we fail, and retreat to our frontier, we are viewed as losers. No way we can win this argument. Best to leave it alone. Also, there is another problem. According to the terms of the ceasefire, the Lebanese army is to occupy the land between our frontier and the river, so it is hard to argue that we have won much of anything. It would have been better to have ignored the whole line of argument, which you failed to do.

We could nitpick about other problem, for example: Debka, one of our best propaganda arms but not designed to influence people who know much about what is going on in Middle East.

The main problem is that your post to “el gaviero” lacks passion.

Nadine, I want to be frank with you. We pay you for three reasons:
1. You are to defend Israel no matter what;
2. You are to demonstrate some level of intellect, the higher and the more accurate the better, though of course, as in all propaganda efforts, a judicious lie or half-truth is at the heart of all successful campaigns. You of course know this and practice it all the time, but in your post to “el gaviero” you were flat, which leads to the last point;
3. You are to be passionate.

Point number three is important. We want feeling. Real feeling. We want passion informed by intellect – this is what we pay you $20 dollars for every single post that you make on any internet chat line.

Clearly, Nadine, you have not turned soft on us, but it appears that you are becoming numb. This not good. If you don’t believe in the work that we are doing, then you should find another job. Numbness will not get the job done. You have to avoid getting lazy, too. Writing one post in the morning, and then copying the text of that post into many others during the rest of the day – that’s not going to get the job done either. We want you to be persuasive, and for that, you must be smart, passionate and inter-active, that is to say, you must be personal, even if only to deliver an insult to one particular poster with whom you are having an argument. In your post to ”el gaviero” you were none of the above.

We Jews know more than any other people that for a man to do evil to other human beings, he must first dehumanize those other human beings. We have been on the receiving end of this nasty human tendency for 2000 years. Now we have to dish it out a little– or in some cases a lot --- because we need lebensraum, and we intend to get it. Some Jews become self-hating and turn all teary about Arab children. You are not one of those, Nadine, but you show signs of falling into a condition almost as bad. You are becoming numb, maybe because you have to defend what your heart thinks cannot be defended. We don’t know the source of the problem but we do know that you are responding with hackneyed phrases and lack of feeling. We are not paying you to be numb, Nadine, and expect improvement.

Finally, Nadine, you are not sticking with the program. We have sent you many memos saying that our principal tactic is to make Israel appear to be part of the West, so that an attack on Israel appears to be an attack on England or America or even France. When the Arabs resist, we want to frame their resistance in such a way as to make it appear as if they are not fighting FOR their land --- i.e., for what they have and we want --- but AGAINST Western Civilization, or some such big abstract notion like freedom, or women’s rights, or equality.

The Arabs are good at playing into our hands by trying all kinds of harebrained schemes of violence, and the Mossad helps them along if aware of a plot or conspiracy. But we cannot always count on the Arabs to make our work easy for us.

Above all, as you know, we want to avoid making it seem as if we are just tribe A fighting against tribe B for the same bit of dirt.

Hope these points are useful. We don’t mean to be brusque, but if we don’t see improvement, Nadine, especially in the area of passion, we are going to have to drop you back to a lower level of compensation.

Sincerely yours,

AIPAC internet information services



To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (197298)8/15/2006 12:24:45 AM
From: Hawkmoon  Respond to of 281500
 
The problem with fighting Arabs is that they are masters of claiming defeats are really victories, like Egypt did in 1973, so you have to smash them unequivocally in order to register a defeat, which Israel didn't manage to do.

Interesting analogy. Sadat really felt he needed to fight a way in 1973 to avenge "Arab honor" and Egyptian troops DID fight MUCH BETTER than they had in 1967, and really bloodied Israel's nose in the early days of the war.

But this "pyrrhic victory" did permit him the political buffer he needed to engage in peace talks with Israel.

It would be nice to think that the same thing might occur with Lebanon. However, since Hizbullah militia is not an official entity of the Lebanese government, it's doubtful that that Nasrallah will ever be willing to accept voluntary peace with Israel.

But who knows, it all depends upon how the political winds blow in Lebanon in the aftermath of this recent conflict. Will the Lebanon speak with a private voice in the next elections by limiting Hizbullah's presence and role in the Lebanese government, or will they set themselves up to remain his pawn.

And, of course, will Lebanon continue to permit Hizbullah to be re-armed by the Syrians and Iranians?

Hawk



To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (197298)8/15/2006 1:04:43 PM
From: el_gaviero  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Nadine Carroll in her agi-prop land:

Hizbullah didn't "stop" Israel, though they will claim it. Where are the Israelis? Still in Israel? No, they hold Lebanon south of the Litani, that's Hizbullah-land.

Robert Fisk in Lebanon:

"In fact, it is unlikely that there were yesterday more than 1,000 Israeli soldiers left in all of southern Lebanon, although they did become involved in two fire-fights during the morning, hours after the UN-ceasefire went into effect."

news.independent.co.uk