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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (197410)8/14/2006 10:10:24 PM
From: jttmab  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Israel may have created a fertile ground for Hezbullah, but it is a crop carefully tended by Iran. Iran trained, Iran equipped to the tune of $250 million a year they say - that's a LOT of moolah for a relatively small force.

They have said $100M; they have said $250M. They don't know, they're making it up, it's gossip.

Hezbollah is a multi-functioned group. They're terrorists and social workers. They have their Hezbollah construction company that goes house to house and fixes doors and windows. They have their hospitals that treat people. They shell out money for Shia families that can't afford to send their children to school. How did that $100M or $250M get distributed in that multi-function group.

When the Shia come back Hezbollah will be there, rebuilding, restocking the hospitals, getting the schools up and running and re-arming.

To just say "Israel created them" is a weird statement, in fact. But I've often noticed that people on the left side of the fence talk as if ONLY the US and Israel could ever actually DO anything, as if Iran and Syria and Al Qaeda didn't make their own decisions too.

I'm not sure why. Hezbollah came into existence because of the Israeli occupation. The historical record reflects that regardless of whether you're reading a right-handed history book or a left-handed one. Whether Iran or Syria funded or continues to fund Hezbollah doesn't affect how Hezbollah came into existance. It's also true that Hezbollah makes their own decisions. Iran doesn't own Hezbollah, nor does Syria. Everyone makes their own decisions. As part of a political process we like to think if we speak out about our foreign policy we might have an impact [Fools that we are.]. We have no illusions that saying Iran is bad, very bad will have any impact on Iran.

I'm sick and tired of the US supporting tyrants because it's been convenient to do so. If you want to put me in your little box of the "liberal left" because supporting Augusto Pinocet disgusts me, then put me in the damn box if it makes you feel better. I've said that Saudi Arabia is probably the worst country in the mid-east when it comes to human rights, human traficking, public beheading...and a whole bunch of other things including training their little brats to kill infidels [which includes you and me]. They are a tier 3 country and entitled to be sanctioned under US law. But Bush gave them an exemption. It pisses me off, so put me in your little "liberal left" box. The label doesn't bother me.

But if they had executed a blitzkrieg succesfully, Nasrallah would be dead along with most of his officers, and most of the military fortifications and rockets would definitely be destroyed. They could have done that.

Blitzkrieg is conventional war. This is asymetric war. The IDF couldn't even shut down the Hezbollah radio station. Hezbollah has a trained full time army of 3-5,000 and another estimated 50,000 reserves [probably a puffed up number]. How many did the IDF get? Not even a dent. Artillery barages going day and night and they couldn't dent Hezbollah. In an asymmetric war, you have to fight and win on their terms. Hand to hand combat in houses, villages, alleys, hills and tunnels. A battlefield well known to Hezbollah and in their favor. The multiplier factor of Israeli military superiority is lost.

Are the Israelis willing to accept a war on Hezbollah's terms with the commensurate casualites? Not today.

jttmab



To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (197410)8/15/2006 12:50:56 AM
From: Bilow  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Hi Nadine Carroll; Re: "But if they had executed a blitzkrieg succesfully, Nasrallah would be dead along with most of his officers, and most of the military fortifications and rockets would definitely be destroyed. They could have done that."

Right. In your dreams. What's next? Are you going to blame the debacle on the leadership? Whenever a left wing government loses a war, it's traditional for the right wing to blame the leadership and to say that they woulda, they coulda, etc. In the reverse situation the left wing sometimes says the same thing, sometimes not.

Israeli soldiers are coming back saying that Hezbollah fought well, were well supplied, had courage, and knew the terrain better. The ambush situation got so bad that someone in the IDF made the comment that soldiers were allowed to steal food from Lebanese stores, a statement which has since been denied.

-- Carl

P.S. Let's play a game. Which country's newspapers published these descriptions of Israel's victory?

From Berger's perspective, the state of national endurance is not encouraging. The lack of organization in the rear produces tremendous exhaustion. "It's not only that we didn't prepare for this war," he says, "but that people here are still harboring a feeling that the army will be victorious, and when they acknowledge that this mock army of Hezbollah is not so weak, they snap. All the primeval fears about the world seeking our destruction surface, the connection to the Holocaust is subsequently made, and this causes people to sink into despair."

Yet the reason that this incompetent, embarrassment of a government must go is not simply because it has delivered Israel the worst defeat in its history. This government must go because every day it sits in power it exacerbates the damage it has already caused and increases the dangers to Israel.

In the upcoming days, there will be a torrent of accusations about the humiliation that befell the IDF. A strange coalition on the right and left has formed around the conclusion that Israel has been defeated.

Expressing enormous admiration for Hizbullah, Palestinians across the political spectrum agreed that Israel had suffered a humiliating defeat.

Peretz said he would assign a task force to investigate the IDF's conduct during the war in Lebanon and their preparedness before the war.

Explaining the new setup in Lebanon, one senior officer said that trucks carrying weapons or Hizbullah gunmen did not pose an immediate threat and therefore would not be targeted. "The idea is to open fire at Hizbullah only if soldiers are faced with an immediate threat. Trucks carrying weapons do not fall under that category," he said.

Following the cease-fire, the IDF Home Front Command released new guidelines for residents of the North, who began to return to their homes. Residents were called on to return to their normal lives, while remaining on heightened alert in case warnings of incoming Katyusha rockets were sounded. However, there remained an advisory against public gatherings, youth activities and day camps.

On the other hand, Olmert and Defense Minister Amir Peretz will be facing a difficult political and public battle for survival. A call for a commission of inquiry can be expected, and there will probably be mass demonstrations and demands for the resignation of the two of them after the war. They will face aggressive opposition also from inside their parties.

Diplomatically, in the space of five weeks the government managed to undermine Israel's alliance with America; to hand Syria, Hizbullah and Iran the greatest diplomatic achievements they have ever experienced; and to flush down the toilet the unprecedented international support that US President Bush handed to Israel on a silver platter at the G-8 summit.

Even before the cease-fire in Lebanon took effect on Monday morning, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's political foes started firing upon the prime minister with calls for a state commission of inquiry to investigate the war that ended and a national-unity government to prepare for "the next war." Preparations are already underway for three separate commissions of inquiry: An IDF team will be formed by Defense Minister Amir Peretz, State Comptroller Micha Lindenstrauss will examine preparations for the war in the home front and the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee will form a parliamentary probe.

But the government didn't feel like it. It wanted to win the war on the cheap. And when the air campaign did not succeed, it abandoned its war goals, declared victory and sued for a cease-fire. When the public objected, after waiting two precious weeks, the government called up the reserves but then waited another unforgivable 10 days before committing them to battle.

From all sides of the political spectrum calls are being raised for the establishment of an official commission of inquiry to investigate the Olmert government's incompetent management of the war in Lebanon. These calls are misguided. We do not need a commission to know what happened or what has to happen. The Olmert government has failed on every level. The Olmert government must go.

While neither side can prove the other wrong, the fact that there are deadly clashes with Hezbollah fighters so close to the border, as Israel enters the second month of fighting, raises doubts about the IDF's ability to do away with the last Hezbollah man, even if there was no time constraint.

"It's not that I'm against the war, but our commanders can't say what the missions are and what they want from us," says Moshe from Petah Tikva, married and father of two. "It's clear to us that this is a war for our home," says his comrade, "but if the government isn't certain, why should we volunteer to be cannon fodder for their experiments."

The IDF Spokesman's Office said Monday that comments attributed to Brigadier General Avi Mizrahi, the head of the army's logistics branch, to the effect that soldiers deep inside Lebanese territory without food could break into local stores, had not been made by him. ... Mizrahi's comments followed complaints by IDF soldiers regarding the lack of food on the front lines.

Assad was quoted in the Egyptian newspaper al-Osboa on Monday warning Israel not to attack Syria. "If Israel goes out on an adventure and attacks Syria, it will begin paying a very high price," he said.

The war-guide to winners and losers

Israel: Certainly not a winner. "Her people said she did Israel a favor," I wrote today about Secretary Rice, "as it sought a way to stop the bloodshed without seeming to surrender. She saved Israel from itself." Read my analysis here.

"The fact that the United States has spent major diplomatic capital providing Israel with an unprecedented window of opportunity to deal with Hezbollah, facing down both its European allies and the Arab League, and complicating efforts to launch multilateral sanctions against Iran, makes matters [namely, an Israeli loss] even worse," wrote David B. Rivkin Jr. and Lee A. Casey, echoing an article written by Charles Krauthammer in the Washington Post a couple of days ago.

Reference to the battle in the Wadi Salouki area is relevant here. In the early morning hours the battle ended successfully: A tank force crossed the river and climbed the steep hills to join an advanced infantry force in the push toward the Litani. Division 162 fulfilled its orders, and fighting in the area claimed the lives of 15 soldiers in the past two days. The first tank to cross the wadi was destroyed by a massive mine, and its crew was killed. Eight other tanks suffered anti-tank missile hits. Among the two dead are two company commanders. A battalion commander was seriously injured. The division describes this as "a historic achievement." Other officers wondered whether it was not possible to make do only with infantry operations, and why there were no consultations with officers from the Paratroopers and Golani forces, who in the past had been involved in bloody fighting in the area.

Muhammad Atiyeh, who describes himself as a Hamas supporter, is convinced that the war in Lebanon could signal the beginning of the demise of Israel. "After 30 days of fighting, Israel had to beg the Americans for a cease-fire," he said. "Had it not been for the US, Israel would have vanished a long time ago. We have seen in recent years that Israel does not have the capability to confront Muslim warriors from Hamas and Hizbullah. The day will come when all Muslims will unite and wipe Israel off the map."

Less than two days have passed, the IDF has suffered 32 fatalities and two of the arguments in favor of the operation have been shattered. The text of the resolution has not been changed because the Security Council voted immediately after the start of the offensive. And with the exception of a small area in the central part of the front, the IDF is nowhere near the Litani. In most parts IDF forces are nearly 10 kilometers away, with dozens of Hezbollah positions still in the area.

The last thing Captain [company commander] Shai Bernstein told this reporter was about his girlfriend, Sivan. "When I go home, he said with a broad smile, "I won't recognize her. I'll say, 'Who are you? Didn't we meet in high school? Pleased to meet you.'" They had not seen each other for a month. They planned to marry. ... Shai Bernstein exuded confidence and control, a man-child with no need of gallows humor. It was clear that when the war was over, Bernstein was going home to Be'er Sheva, to Sivan. But on Saturday, a missile penetrated the side panel of his tank.

A source with access to the report said its main conclusion is that Israel has no security solution to the threat of rockets launched from the West Bank against population centers. The report's authors assume that following a unilateral Israeli pullout from the West Bank, Hamas will takeover and deploy rockets. Currently, the only solution to the missile threat that the Israel Defense Forces has to offer is its actual presence in the territories and control of the high ground.

By afternoon, their fears were realized: cars loaded with Hizballah fighters, boxes of guns and military equipment were clearly visible heading south. Israeli troops were not authorized to stop them. ..... quotes a senior military source as saying that Hizballah is making a mockery of the ceasefire which Israel honored. “The situation is dangerous,” he said, Most of Hizballah’s fortifications, including its bunker network in the south, were not destroyed as reported. Fresh Hizballah strength is now heading back to man those war stations anew.

Could it possibly be, then, that Israel simply does not believe that this cease-fire can hold? The alternative explanation is even sadder: Is it possible that the dead soldiers, from the last few days, sacrificed their lives for the sake of the image of victory? Was this last-minute rush to the Litani meant to satisfy a pent-up military urge, building for two weeks now, to move forward? Or worse, was this operation meant to allow the government a political time-out before public criticism heightened over the limited achievements of this campaign?

The UN cease-fire that Olmert, Livni and Peretz applaud undercuts Israel's sovereignty; protects Hizbullah; lets Iran and Syria off the hook; lends credibility to our enemies' belief that Israel can be destroyed; emboldens the Palestinians to launch their next round of war; and leaves IDF hostages Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev in captivity.

In other words, on the eve of the war's end, one of the basic aims of the IDF operation was not achieved. The Katyusha attacks have not diminished. Yesterday, a television crew caught a Katyusha being launched not far from Metula, a distance of several dozen meters from Israel.

Syrian president Bashar Assad: "They said peace was the only way but now, after seeing how Hizballah fought, I see an option. Syrian hands will liberate Golan.”

The goals of the war have not been attained, said Netanyahu. There will be another round of war, but we will beat Hizballah and live in safety. That is our message for Nasrallah and Tehran.

"There were failures in identifying the threat, in managing the war, and in comforting the home front," said Netanyahu. "There is no doubt that we must learn our lesson and correct our mistakes. We were asleep and we received a wake-up call."

During the day, MKs from across the political spectrum issued calls for a formal inquiry committee on the war. Despite expectations that MKs would blast the government, much of the criticism remained contained, as many MKs said they were biting their tongues until they could be sure the cease-fire had held.



To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (197410)8/15/2006 4:08:06 AM
From: Elroy  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Iran trained, Iran equipped to the tune of $250 million a year they say

Much other US ME intelligence has proven to be completely wrong, why do you believe this one?