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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: epicure who wrote (205998)	10/16/2006 4:03:02 PM
From: Sun Tzu	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

>> To be fair I think some folks adopted a mushy model I disagree. See below. >> [the model based on] we had to get rid of Saddam This is called assuming the conclusions. It is a big no-no. >> AND we needed to make a bug zapper Also assumes the conclusions (just worded differently). >> AND we are bringing a new era of enlightenment and democracy to the ME This is the only part that does not assume the conclusion. BUT, there was no logical link to go from here to the faith in mythical powers of bombs and US war machinery to create civil and enlightened society. >> some Neocons in Washington really thought they could do a makeover on the ME Their belief was not in question. I am pretty sure that many who prosecuted Galileo also believed the Sun revolved around the Earth. The question is "was the model internally consistent and logical". The answer is no. It was faith based. A proper model has the form of: (A) Given these observable and indisputable facts... (B) IF we make the few assumptions that... (C) Then we can explain much of the rest of observations and more importantly we may predict that... The war party never came even remotely close to doing that. ST

To: epicure who wrote (205998)	10/16/2006 4:33:08 PM
From: Ilaine	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

You need to put into the equation the Iraqi people themselves, especially the ones who came to Washington and lobbied for our help in deposing Saddam and establishing democracy. I remember when there were Iraqis asking us to depose Saddam after the Coalition forces ejected the Iraqis from Kuwait, and help them establish a democracy then, but we didn't do it then, although we said we would. Saddam murdered hundreds of thousands of Iraqis then. I remember when there were Iranians asking us to quit supporting the Shah, and they believed that the new government in Iran would be democratic. Dunno how many of those people were killed by the Mullahs but I do know there were a lot of them. The beauty of democracy, especially constitutional democracy, is that government is by law, not murder. I don't think it's hubris to believe that people want to be free, they don't want to cower in fear of being murdered.