SI
SI
discoversearch

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor.  We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community.  If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.
Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: mistermj who wrote (207313)10/30/2006 3:36:10 AM
From: geode00  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
mjfdl, you keep repeating the same information without providing any support for your position. You also can't define your position as is evidenced by your continuing refusal to answer a few simple questions.

I have already provided you with information debunking your guy's position and your own links don't support you. It's clear that you don't understand this subject and refuse to do more than make a cursory scan just to fill post space.

You should just give it up because I doubt you'll ever be able to understand why your 'argument' is shallow.



To: mistermj who wrote (207313)10/30/2006 4:41:57 AM
From: Wharf Rat  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 281500
 
A few months old...Stuart just gave a paper at APSO, and will post new data shortly....

Right now, May 2005 is the winner, but December 2005 and April 2006 are statistical ties. Minor revisions and changes to methodology could very easily change which is exactly the winner (indeed it was December 2005 for a while). But anyway, the oil industry doesn't seem to quite be able to tip it past the 85mbpd mark (on a combined agency basis) for the time being.

Finally, some folks expressed interest in just looking at crude plus condensate (ie real honest-to-God oil, rather than including natural gas liquids, biofuels, CTL, etc, etc). The EIA tracks that in Table 1.1, and here is the plateau in that:



Global crude and condensate production from Jan 2002 to May 2006, together with 13 month moving average, recursed once. Source: EIA International Petroleum Monthly Table 1.1c.
theoildrum.com

Found some data thru July...
It starts to look like a plateau
Rune in Norway, Energy Resources
The blogspot energikrise.blogspot.com recently posted updated diagrams for the development in world oil supplies (believed to be all liquids) based upon data from EIA Petroleum International Monthly for October 2006 which includes data as of July 2006.

The data from EIA shows that the world supplies of oil were down with an average of 0,18 Mb/d for the 7 first months of 2006 relative to the same period of 2005, and that the supplies of regular oil and lease condensate so far still had a top back in December 2005.

For the last 22 months (September 2004 - July 2006) the arithmetic average for oil supplies was 84,25 Mb/d, and supplies have been running within 1 % of this average for these months.

OPEC (the second diagram) supplies (oil, lease condensate and NGL's) have so far had a top back in September 2005.

OPEC supplies (oil, lease condensate and NGL's) are down 0,29 Mb/d for the 7 first months of 2006 compared to the same period of 2005.
energybulletin.net

==================

"there is an infinity of different shapes that
such a curve may have.” (Hubbert ,1949)"

That's probably why he didn't give his paper until '56. He was predicting a world peak around '96. It is now felt that the oil shocks in the 70's slowed the world economy enuf to push that back 10 years, which is roughly now.
===========

The theory is named after American geophysicist Marion King Hubbert, who created a model of known oil reserves, and proposed, in a paper he presented to the American Petroleum Institute in 1956 [3], that production of oil from conventional sources would peak in the continental United States between 1965 and 1970, and worldwide within "about half a century" from publication
en.wikipedia.org



To: mistermj who wrote (207313)10/30/2006 6:15:45 AM
From: jttmab  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
There is a limited amount of oil in the world and its production follows a bell shaped curve.

Hubbert says:
“…there is an infinity of different shapes that
such a curve may have.” (Hubbert ,1949)


Both are true. You should read up on Gaussian distributions if you have any doubts.

jttmab



To: mistermj who wrote (207313)10/30/2006 11:14:27 AM
From: geode00  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
A Reply by John Attarian

download pdfImportant Notice: This is a plain text article extracted from Dr Colin Campbell's ASPO Newlsetter 34 (October 2003). Any images, graphs and other non-text components are not shown here. To view this article in its full context and with non-text components, please download the PDF version of the full newsletter. You should look for article #259. PDF versions of all newsletters can be found in the newsletter downloads section.

First published October 2003; article no. 259

Michael Lynch's article in the July 14 issue of the Oil & Gas Journal is a peevish exercise in intellectual dishonesty. He sneers at Colin Campbell, Jean Laherrere, et al. as erroneous, lacking in rigor, etc. His own performance strikingly demonstrates these flaws. The depletion school, Lynch says, notes that most estimates put ultimately recoverable resource (URR) at roughly 2 trillion bbl. True, but he defines URR as "the amount of oil thought to be recoverable, given existing technology and economics (price and cost). It includes estimates of undiscovered oil but is only a fraction of the total resource." (note 1) But the qualifier "given existing technology and economics" applies to reserves, not resources--and Campbell et al. are talking about resources, not reserves! So much for Lynch as watchdog of rigor.
Lynch makes an utterly misleading fuss over "the Hubbert curve."

"The initial theory behind what is now known as the Hubbert curve was very simplistic. Hubbert was simply trying to estimate approximate resource levels, and for the US Lower 48, he thought a bell curve would be the most appropriate form. It was only later that the Hubbert curve came to be seen as explanatory in and of itself, that is, geology requires that production should follow such a curve.

"Conceding that a bell curve is typical of large populations and persistent capital stock, he chides, "it is a mistake to interpret this to mean that the system is constrained to a bell curve." This falsifies Hubbert. Per his "Energy From Fossil Fuels" (Science, February 4, 1949), Hubbert started from the irrefutable fact that a fossil fuel's endowment is fixed; therefore its production curve "will rise, pass through one or several maxima, and then decline asymptotically to zero." He stated explicitly that such a curve may have "an infinity of possible shapes." He never claimed that "the system is constrained to a bell curve."

Lynch asserts, without documentation, that Campbell and Laherrere initially argued "that production should follow a bell curve, at least in an unconstrained province. In fact, discovery sizes tend to be asymmetric, with an early peak and a long tail." So do production plots, Lynch says, and because of taxes etc., "oil production rarely follows a bell curve." Much ado about nothing! Hubbert was not wedded to a bell curve, as the foregoing quotes make clear. Neither is the depletion camp. Campbell's companion article explicitly distinguishes "theoretical unconstrained production" (which may resemble a bell curve) and "real-world production as constrained for economic or political reasons."

Real-world data don't necessarily conform to idealized shapes generated by mathematics--and aren't expected to. The bell-shaped curve is simply a stylized, idealized representation of the phenomenon of rise, peak, and decline of output, amenable to mathematical expression and analysis, useful as a pedagogical and forecasting device--in fact, the sort of thing economists do all the time. Indeed, it ill behooves Lynch to fixate on the bell curve and accurse Hubbert modelers of "lack of rigor" and "statistical illusions." As an economist, Lynch knows--or should--that demand and supply for virtually all goods and services occur in whole numbers; nobody buys 1.5 cars or sells 0.75 sweaters. Yet all economists, doubtless including Lynch, draw continuous supply and demand curves--a useful teaching device, but accurate demand and supply schedules would be sets of unconnected points.

Worse yet, economists have been using calculus for generations. Calculus requires continuous functions. Economics doesn't have any. Its pretentious higher mathematics, then, rest on sleight of hand and mumbo-jumbo. Its vaunted "rigor" is bogus. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
So real-world data aren't a smooth bell curve. Big deal. What matters is the general pattern of rise, peak, and decline. Lynch is bashing a straw man. Pontificating that "only 8 of 51" non-OPEC countries' production plots in Campbell's _Essence of Oil & Gas Depletion_ follow a bell curve enables Lynch to evade the reality that _every last one_ of the 51 shows annual extraction rising, passing through one or more maxima, then inexorably declining. That alone vindicates Hubbert and discredits Lynch, but there's more. Perusal of the last column in Campbell's table "Regular Oil Production to 2075" (_Essence,_ p. 237) reveals that one country peaked in 1951-1960; four in 1961-1970; 11 in 1971-1980; 11 in 1981-1990; and 18 in 1991-2000 (12 in 1996-2000). That ever-more producers peak as time advances, and that 45 out of 64 have already peaked, signals strongly that we are approaching worldwide peak. Lynch obviously read Campbell's book. Equally obviously, he failed to pick up on this trend. Divining patterns in data is something economists are supposed to be good at. Can't flat-earth economists see what they look at? Or is it they just don't want to?
The fundamental issue is this: is the oil endowment fixed and finite, or isn't it? If it is, peak and decline are inevitable; if not, not. Geologists have known for decades that oil's formation requires certain heat and pressure conditions operating over geologic time. This necessarily makes the quantity finite--implying that the Hubbert camp is ineluctably right.
The only way around this is Thomas Gold's "deep, hot biosphere" which would keep augmenting the oil endowment (how quickly?) The physicist Albert Bartlett assured me in private correspondence that he didn't know of "any scientists who count on the kind of oil Thomas Gold postulates." Game, set and match to Hubbert, Campbell, Deffeyes, Laherrere, et al.!
Lynch also misrepresents the Hubbert modelers as claiming that "geology is the sole motivator of discovery, depletion, and production." They never said geology is the "motivator"--curious choice of words!--of anything. What they do say, and as Lynch's immediately following quotes from their works make clear, is that geology limits what is possible in discovery and production. Which of course it does.
He further misrepresents the Hubbert camp as saying that geology determines everything single-handed: "The idea that production is influenced by prices . . . is considered foolish." Oh? Campbell's Essence, which Lynch cites, maintains explicitly that "demand naturally influences the rate of depletion" (p. 9) and that "In forecasting oil production, it is important to take into account demand as well as supply" (p. 182). A fair treatment of the Hubbert camp would include this qualification. Or did Lynch and I read different books?
Nor do the Hubbert modelers "attempt to divine physical laws" from "particular shapes." As the foregoing quotes from Hubbert make clear, the reverse is true: the reality of limits means production must rise, peak, and decline. The "particular shape" is irrelevant.
Lynch claims that "The primary flaw in Hubbert-type models is a reliance on URR as a static number rather than a dynamic variable, changing with technology, knowledge, infrastructure, and other factors, but primarily growing." But Campbell et al. are referring to resources, not reserves. URR is fixed because Earth's oil endowment is finite. Seeing it as "static" is not a "flaw." It's fidelity to the facts.
Falsifications and distortions of their opponents are common among cornucopians. That, plus their refusal to acknowledge the reality of limits, destroys their credibility in my eyes.
peakoil.ie