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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (231837)	5/21/2007 10:17:30 PM
From: epicure	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

I doubt you've read more history books than I have, and if you think Venice was "typical" you've been reading some really really weird history books. You may have been limiting yourself to the 16th century, but I was talking about the history of "the West". Women of the west are tainted by Eve's sin by the dominant religion- Christianity. I don't know how much worse you can get than to blame women for the human race's misery at being thrown out of paradise, and to tell women that their pain in childbirth and the risk of death in it is all the fault of Eve's sin in the garden of Eden. Seems to me the West was a pretty cruel place for women, and I don't agree with you that "Arabs" are worse. You seem fixated on the harem thing and rape thing. IMO you've got to look at the whole spectrum. And if you add up everything vile that happened to women in "the West", versus the Arab world, I think the vile addition is going to be a pretty close match. I understand you think all the history books you've read lead you to another conclusion- but given that you also tell me Venice was typical, I hope you will understand I think you are less than credible.

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (231837)	5/21/2007 10:26:05 PM
From: epicure	Respond to of 281500

I read this last year: amazon.com You might want to read it. If you contrast that with nonfiction texts about convents in Germany and England, or even other convents in Italy, you'll find Venice was a very different sort of place. Then of course, you'd want to learn a little about the Doges, and just how different Venice was from the rest of the Italian states. I would not say that there was not corruption and decadence elsewhere, and some of the popes certainly gave Venetians a run for their money, but I think almost every source I've ever read paints Venice as a very different sort of city state. I'm surprised you would call it typical. Are you just embarrassed to back down, or do you really really think of Venice as typical? I can't help being curious. Just read the abstract of this book- it encapsulates just how atypical Venice was: amazon.com And fwiw Holland was unusual for some of the same reasons. I suspect you've never read An Embarrassment of Riches- but you really should. The parallels between the wealth of Holland and Venice are interesting, and are based on their thriving trading economies, which fostered liberality.