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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (231845)	5/22/2007 1:23:04 AM
From: Elroy	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

What are all these Palestinian refugee camps doing in Lebanon anyway? Shouldn't these people have been repatriated to Israel-Palestine decades ago? Does Israel prohibit them from relocating to the West Bank? Published: 22/05/2007 12:00 AM (UAE) UN fears clashes may go out of control Agebcues gulfnews.com Cairo: UN Middle East envoy Terje Roed Larsen yesterday expressed "grave concern" over the fighting in Lebanon between the army and extremists, warning it could spiral out of control. "We had long and full discussion on Lebanon, with reasons for grave concern related to the violent incidents of yesterday and this morning," Larsen told reporters after a meeting with Arab League chief Amr Mousa in Cairo. "I will on behalf of the [UN] Secretary General urge everybody to act in the most responsible manner, or else I feel that the whole situation might ... fall off the cliff," he said. Lebanese troops pounded militiamen in a Palestinian refugee camp yesterday, the second day of the bloodiest internal fighting since the 1975-1990 civil war that has now killed at least 55 people.

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (231845)	5/22/2007 2:03:48 AM
From: epicure	Respond to of 281500

"and what I said for Holland and Venice (two places that happened to have Turkish embassies) was true for other places as well. " If the above language does not mean they are typical, I have no idea what other construction you could put on those words. What was true for Venice and Holland was NOT true for other places- not wrt women, and not wrt anything else. Your statement is ridiculous. There were complex rules in various places about how women had to be garbed, and what was appropriate- and extremely complicated rules about chaperoning- and women were NOT allowed to speak to men outside their own families in many cases, except in the most formal manner in approved gatherings. So you are just wrong. olivetreegenealogy.com Read that- and learn just how shockingly modern the Dutch were. I can't believe you don't know this stuff. I am arguing, with the weight of historic fact on my side, that women in England and France were chattel- and their virginity was part of their value as chattel. Women were cloistered, chaperoned, and their lives were highly confined. If you read as many history books as you say you have, you ought to know all that. As for Mary's "grace"- that would only apply to Catholics, and even then I think it's on thin ice. Huge controversy over just what magical powers Mary is allowed to have. Mary is quite clearly not of the trinity. There was some desire to give her heightened status, but that would have caused immense problems with other Christian traditions- and I'm sure you are aware of the Mary cults, and the crushing of these- another example of misogyny. The church has cleverly allowed women a bit of the old goddess mumbo jumbo to keep them happy, but they gave Mary second class status. Pretty typical of a patriarchal hierarchy aiming to keep women in their place. I'd say it's a mark in favor of Islam that it doesn't do that. And I have no idea how Mary elevates women above Eve's sin. That just doesn't happen. She's not allowed to redeem people. She herself is above sin, according to the mythology, but she can't give it to other people- only Jesus and God get to do that. At most Mary is like a Saint- and she can intercede with the head honchos (God and Mr Jesus) I thought this explained it fairly well: jeremiahproject.com