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Politics : View from the Center and Left -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Steve Lokness who wrote (37801)	5/24/2007 11:18:07 AM
From: epicure	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 541791

"Elroy, we, by our actions, are creating the "hate" by failing to understand their culture and their religion. It is this hate that is fostering a culture of terrorism. (That is a powerful statement and by saying that of course I am not justifying their actions - just trying to find the cause of their hate for us). If we fail to understand that - as the study so clearly showed - we have a very unfortunate future waiting for us - and the world." From what I read of Elroy he more or less agrees with that. I think he understands the whole thing pretty well. I think you might be misreading him. Although I think he would argue there is not a "culture of terrorism" here in the US, and were AMerican Christians asked a similar question (like "Christianity is under attack- would you defend it by any means necessary"- I think Elroy might say you'd get similar numbers. It doesn't mean Christians are going to be terrorists- it just means that in certain circumstances they imagine they would be violent to defend their religion from attack. I think everything Elroy has said on this topic has been pretty reasonable and moderate.

To: Steve Lokness who wrote (37801)	5/24/2007 11:18:54 AM
From: KonKilo	Respond to of 541791

...we, by our actions, are creating the "hate" by failing to understand their culture and their religion. When failing to understand other cultures and religions results in solidifying power for certain groups and enriching the pocketbooks of others who have a vested interest in the former, expect more "misunderstandings".

To: Steve Lokness who wrote (37801)	5/24/2007 11:32:26 AM
From: Elroy	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 541791

You are playing with semantics. I wish you had heard the NPR program that I did that talked about people who justify their thinking by lying to themselves. That you are trying to justify this extremely troubling results is EXACTLY what Ron Paul was trying to get across in his confrontation with Rudy. I was talking about the rhetoric of the survey question, and how I think the wrong choice of words was used, and is often used, in comparing a religion (Islam) and the capitalist, secular free world (the West). It may not be the conversation you are looking for, but it's a reasonable point of discussion. I didn't play with semantics. I didn't lie to myself. By definition a secular way of life (the West) is opposed to a sharia-based, religiously legislated way of life (the "Islamic world"), so given the poor phrasing of the question (Does secular life attempt to weaken sharia-based legislated Islamic life?) you are of course going to get the answer "yes" by any thinking person who understands the terms in the question. The West doesn't compel religious behaviour and instead heightens individual choice and responsibility. The Islamic world does compel religious behaviour and lowers individual choice below the will of Allah. The two ways of life (if the definitions of terms are correct) are incompatible. Elroy, we, by our actions, are creating the "hate" by failing to understand their culture and their religion. It is this hate that is fostering a culture of terrorism. That's a pretty big statement and more loaded than I care to go into. My point was simply that you are better off comparing religions with religions, and nations with nations, and systems of governance with systems of governance, but the question was a comparison of an specific religion with a secular form of governance, which is messy. Personally, rather than "Do you think the West is weakening the Islamic world?" (whatever that is) I would have liked to have a question along the lines of "Do you think the Islamic world is weak, and if so why?" so that they would have had the oppotunity to take responsibility for their shortcomings rather than blame it on the mysterious all powerful outside forces....

To: Steve Lokness who wrote (37801)	5/24/2007 11:39:47 AM
From: JohnM	Respond to of 541791

Elroy, we, by our actions, are creating the "hate" by failing to understand their culture and their religion. It is this hate that is fostering a culture of terrorism. (That is a powerful statement and by saying that of course I am not justifying their actions - just trying to find the cause of their hate for us). If we fail to understand that - as the study so clearly showed - we have a very unfortunate future waiting for us - and the world. Well said, Steve. I don't think Elroy would disagree but who knows how much beer he still has in his system from Vegas.