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To: one_less who wrote (14347)	6/12/2007 7:00:38 PM
From: Brumar89	Respond to of 14758

That material about free will and God's will is pretty good. So, then we get to the tough one, free will. It is not a question about whether or not we could have free will, we obviously have free will. The question, however is, how is that rational, given an Omniscient God who is not only All Knowing, Omnipresent, but also All Powerful? How is it that we can be free to choose disobedience of an All Powerful God? The answer to that question is that we can't. It is rational but flies in the face of some religious dogma. The only answer can be is that the all powerful God wills that we have the power to do other than his will if we choose. It is God’s will that we freely choose, it is not God's will that we have to obey the rules of righteousness. If we disobey the rules we were given, we have harmed ourselves but not violated God’s Will. There ya go. Or, Amen. If an All Powerful God willed that we all obey the rules of righteousness we would logically not have the power to disobey that will and would all be Angels. The purpose: When tested by attractions, we choose to do what we know is right for our soul, or we fail. When you sin (don’t obey rules of righteousness), you don’t disappoint, or harm the All Powerful (That would be a contradiction of terms); you cause harm to your soul, and that is according to his will, you have chosen your fate as he willed you to do. PS: Not sure this answer would satisfy a non-believer tho.

To: one_less who wrote (14347)	6/12/2007 10:34:47 PM
From: J_F_Shepard	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 14758

You really are a fake...... All of the crap you posted you claim to know? Omniscient God, Angels, All Knowing, souls (what is a soul composed of...does it have weight?) Does a soul have entropy? Does God care what you do as an individual? Is Jesus Christ the son of God? Comeon big guy, why don't you run through your memorized sermon using flowery terms such as singularity, nothingness, collapsing universes, waves in the water, a drop of water and a tree....... re:"It is God’s will that we freely choose, it is not God's will that we have to obey the rules of righteousness. If we disobey the rules we were given, we have harmed ourselves but not violated God’s Will." God told you this????? Can you cite any ripples in a pond of collapsing universes that will support your claim..... My good fellow, I sincerely think you are a real nutcase....you should be very tolerant of the Taliban.

To: one_less who wrote (14347)	6/13/2007 8:05:29 PM
From: Lazarus_Long	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 14758

Did you miss "Your, problem, I think is you are attempting to argue for one side of a point that cannot be settled. You can no more prove there is a God than I can there isn't." That was me. You don’t have to wonder if God is subject to time or some alternative time. Time is a dimension of the limited nature of the universe. An Omniscient God is by definition not limited, and not subject to limitations. So, the Augustinian type of eternal present is definitional. Now that's interesting. Because the sort of theory that assumes spontaneous creation and explosion (the Big Bang) of a black hole that created the Universe makes precisely that same assumption: time and space have no meaning before that explosion. Which gets into all sorts of interesting weirdities when you try thinking about it. So, then we get to the tough one, free will. It is not a question about whether or not we could have free will, we obviously have free will. The question, however is, how is that rational, given an Omniscient God who is not only All Knowing, Omnipresent, but also All Powerful? How is it that we can be free to choose disobedience of an All Powerful God? The answer to that question is that we can't. It is rational but flies in the face of some religious dogma. So Shep and I had no choice about our religious beliefs? We were condemned to Hell before we were even conceived? Has this God of yours ever heard of "Justice"? Does he care? It is God’s will that we freely choose, it is not God's will that we have to obey the rules of righteousness. So I have free will but I don't?