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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (244117)	10/5/2007 11:28:10 PM
From: cnyndwllr	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Nadine, re: "Where some outside observer might call former declarations about "dead-enders" mistaken, or wishful thinking, or brave talk trying to cover some situation that was clearly not good but also not well comprehended, for you that's impossible - it's all part of some cunning plan, it's all deliberate." It's clear you've never been in a foreign country where the population was supporting an insurgency. It takes less than a week to see the sullen looks and "feel" the animosity. The generals knew that. It wasn't just "brave talk," mistaken, or wishful thinking." That's BS from the same "official sources" and Generals who told you the army didn't want more troops cause we "had enough." Remember how often you heard that and what are you hearing now about that same time period from the same people? "An outside observer might also note that it would be surprising for any administration to deliberately tell lies whose only effect were to make them look foolish, but ha! you lot know better." You forget the utter disdain they held, and hold, for the ignorant among us and for the true believers. They believed they could lie, mislead and minimize the disaster and, when the lies came out, they thought they could manage the problem with spin or a change of subject. And the sad thing is that they were right, at least they were right for a few YEARS. In that time we lost limbs, lives, minds and treasure in Iraq while our interests became more and more damaged. That's the fact, Jack. Or maybe you didn't actually hear your favorite spinners change tunes from victory to, "it doesn't matter how we got here, we can't leave because that would be an unmitigated DISASTER for Iraqi, Middle Eastern and American interests. But wait, wasn't that what they were being told early on when they were going in and deciding to step further into the shit? They called those people "Vietnam defeatists" or "hate America Americans?" Of course you, and they, are still wrong. Iraq was lost when the insurgency took hold and it will stay lost and we will leave. We will have to live with our share of the shameful disaster that will ensue. And, maybe, just maybe, this time we'll learn something so that we at least take something from the deaths, pain and disabilities of those tragic young men and women we sent there, and those they injured and killed. And your little cameos of "The Iraqis might just change their mind after they see American soldiers rush wounded Iraqi kids to hospital, but you won't have that chance" doesn't change a thing. No one is arguing that American soldiers are inhuman, can't show compassion and won't risk their lives selflessly. But unless you're grasping for straws that isn't the issue, is it? "I suppose you think the Iraqis really liked Saddam and didn't rejoice at his fall? They only looked like they were rejoicing?" Which Iraqis? The ones we were paying who were herded out for close up videos on the fallen statue, The Shiites who've played us for fools for so long, the Kurds who had an autonomous region we were protecting that's grown in size, the Sunnis, or some other "Iraqis?" And were they rejoicing because they loved us or because they hated him. Because that does make a difference when you state that the US role in remaking Iraq will be a "generational endeavor," doesn't it? Or maybe you weren't listening to plan A. It was the resistance that forced us to turtle up, give the Iraqis nominal power and go to plan B, whatever that is. Plan C will be the final plan. Get the hell out and claim the Iraqis blew it. But it won't have been the Iraqis, it will have been the inevitable consequence of arrogance, aggression and ignorance that emanated from this country and fed a cancer that was festering in the Middle East. And you'll have cheerled the entire episode when even a life support mind like Jlallen's eventually felt some reservations. Too bad. Ed