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To: Proud Deplorable who wrote (53878)	12/8/2007 1:32:49 PM
From: tyc:>	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 78424

"This banking system is collapsing, the fun is just starting." As a paid up poster to this thread, I protest its use for political agenda's, particularly sick political agendas that express such glee at other people's problems. This guy drove me away from this thread in protest once before. Goodbye again. Although I have enjoyed association with members of this thead generally, I leave with serious doubts in my mind about "gold-bugs"

To: Proud Deplorable who wrote (53878)	12/8/2007 5:26:14 PM
From: loantech	Respond to of 78424

I remember the late Wednesday night NR from Cadero. <NG> We have all hyped and been wrong difference is most of us are not trying to have a guru status. Yes the bail out will be flimsy or futile at best. the banking system going down. No way. They will inflate out of it. I agree that this deal stinks of bad faith. It is not a Bush bailout it is the big loan servicers at Chase and Wells etc. that are trying to save their own hides. Little to do with a borrower bail out to speak of.

To: Proud Deplorable who wrote (53878)	12/9/2007 6:32:20 PM
From: ogi	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 78424

Perhaps you should consider less dogma: You stated: I also do NOT listen to that Bank of Montreal economist whose name escapes me....couldn't be too important. Well here is that Canadian's view from his position within the U.S.A., READ IT AND WEEP:) And then, we’ve had actually a big positive reaction to the terrifying proposals from the Bush administration to solve the subprime mortgage crisis. These are assaults on the whole doctrine of private property on a scale which hasn’t been done in Washington since 1933, when Roosevelt shut down the banks for a day and then announced to all Americans that they had to cash in their gold. I shared an office when I was at National Review with Bill Rickenbacher whose father was the legendary Captain Eddie Rickenbacher. And he ran Eastern Airlines for a couple of decades. And until the day he died, he always kept on hand, in the house, in a safe, more than twenty thousand dollars in cash. Because he said “Someday, once again, the government is going to shut down the banks because of some crisis. And so, he who has cash will still be able to carry on a normal life.” Now you can regard that as a quirky attitude, but, the point is that when the government in Washington takes on the view that it’s going to manage a crisis this way, by intervening in hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of individual transactions, then there is no apparent limit to the government’s power and what that means for the economy. And you can’t do this when you’ve announced in advance that there’s going to be no government subsidy involved. In other words, in order to do it, you must take money from somebody and give it to somebody else. And you do this without regard to the US Constitution or to centuries of practice whereby the government that takes something from somebody and gives it to somebody else directly – it’s the other side of a contract now – we’re not talking about a tax increase which takes money from the rich and gives it to the poor after taking off a large service charge for the bureaucracy. No, this is different. What you’re saying is that a mortgage contract that was agreed to between two…I was going to say two parties, but given these collateralized debt obligations, there is an unknowable number of parties involved. But still on one side you have a multiplicity of parties, on the other side you have one or two homeowners. And what you’re doing is you’re saying “Those homeowners who can’t meet their mortgage payments are going to, in effect, get money from the other side.” The argument is “Well, they wouldn’t have been able to make their mortgage payment anyway, so therefore it’s better for the mortgagee, whoever that mortgagee may be, or however it’s been sliced and diced, because they were going to get hurt anyway.” And you can tell by the ABX index that there are NO mortgages out there which are worth face value anymore. That’s how bad the crisis is. So therefore you’re saying “We’re just recognizing economic reality”. This is…and the idea now that the Democrats are announcing “Oh, this doesn’t go far enough”. We’re talking about a monumental expansion of governmental power and it cannot work because the essential problem is, that there isn’t totally enough income out there to service all this debt. Because in the era of the NINJA mortgages – people with no income, no job, no assets – that the only way you can absolutely prevent mortgages from going into default, ultimately, is to have no payments required whatsoever. We have a total payments freeze. Once you’ve started on it, to show that you’ve succeeded, you’re going to have to do more things. It’s hard for me to imagine anything that’s more bearish than that and yet the Dollar has rallied somewhat. So the stock market has rallied and the Dollar has rallied in the face of what should be regarded as the most scandalous change of attitude of any government in Washington of our lifetime. And we don’t know how it’s all going to play out, but what we do know, is that it’s not going to suddenly make all those mortgages great investments.