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To: skinowski who wrote (235394)	1/21/2008 3:32:43 PM
From: the_wheel	Respond to of 793936

God occasionally reveals himself directly, usually with profound effect. Here is an example: "In 1996, while charging naked into a battle, Blahyi said God appeared and told him he was a slave to Satan, not the hero he considered himself to be, according to an earlier interview with The Associated Press." cnn.com snipurl.com You got to admit his story is beyond the mundane. Disclaimer(s): 1. Not affiliated with nor endorsing any of the above. 2. Recognizing that such talk will be disallowed once the Cat returns. 3. Having previously posted the key, which was summarily ignored.

To: skinowski who wrote (235394)	1/21/2008 9:27:21 PM
From: skinowski	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 793936

I decided to send a link to that post to an old personal friend who just published a book on this subject: amazon.com This is his reply (to the post): From: To: Subject: RE: What do you think? Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 21:16:26 +0000 Hi Anatole, Thanks. Who knew that you were a theologian! ;-) Interesting post. One objection to it, however,is that knowers are also believers. A more serious one is that the same argument, which on first reading does have a certain laissez-faire libertarian appeal, seems to apply also to all sorts of dubious entities and doctrines. People can and will choose to believe in different Gods (or even in Santa Claus or the living Elvis Presley) and the different codes and canons and constraints and codicils that their different Gods prescribe and proscribe. All of them will feel little need to explain or defend their beliefs and will in words or deeds tell the others to shut up. They'll just choose believe without evidence or logic. No so bad perhaps if they stop at some nebulous "something more" and carry on with their business, but people tend to go from their belief in God to impose their "God-given" rules on others who just believe in some other God. Best, the Irreverend John The "Irreverend John" sign-off is new to me, but must say it reflects the essence of the man. Also, tomorrow's NYT published an article about him: nytimes.com

To: skinowski who wrote (235394)	1/21/2008 9:41:12 PM
From: Rambi	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 793936

Sorry for wandering off into a bit of home baked Theology... :) Home cooking is the best kind. :) Let me bring out my apple pie. We always have choice. Knowing there is a God wouldn't prevent people from poor choices, any more than the police or the death penalty or a speed limit prevents poor choices in our physical world. My children knew we were the ultimate authority in our home. As a loving parent, I didn't allow them free will when they were about to stick a fork in a socket. Even later, with the knowledge that I held their lives basically in my hands- well, at least the car keys and their allowances- they still could exercise free will to make bad choices. They tested, they chose, they learned. Because they trusted our love, they knew that even after bad choices, they had another chance, despite our power. KNOWing God exists wouldn't turn him into a tyrant since it still allows for free choice to obey or not, but it at least removes the often vicious words and acts between the believers and nons, or believers of different faiths. And of course, believers often use the word "know" when speaking of their faith, which is what makes it all so confusing when they try to inject faith into science (which I realize you are not addressing). How often have people said- "you just have to step out in faith". That's fine, but not when it's applied to the scientific method. But if you ARE a believer, then I think the two aren't at all mutually exclusive. You can fit your faith easily into science. (Well, unless you start in on the 10000 year thing. That loses me totally.) Some of us are hardwired for logic and find stepping out in faith without proof an incomprehensible leap.