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Politics : View from the Center and Left -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Dale Baker who wrote (47719)2/2/2008 4:55:42 PM
From: Katelew  Read Replies (4) | Respond to of 541390
 
I'm from a career military family and have great respect for military personnel in general.

But my father was a bomber pilot in WW2....he opposed the Vietnam War....and I believe he's been turning over in his grave at the notion of a pre-emptive war.

My experience has been that those who experienced combat tend to be slow to lurch into war. So McCain, as one who experienced the total brutality of a war, has surprised me with his enthusiasm for it.

This has been curious to me for years, and for me as a voter, is a major character flaw.

But I consider him a hero. Apparently he exhibited both courage and selflessness in his years as POW to boot.



To: Dale Baker who wrote (47719)2/2/2008 6:16:08 PM
From: epicure  Respond to of 541390
 
Well said Dale.

I agree. He paid a tremendous price for his service to this country, and whatever I think of his politics, he has my respect and gratitude for his service. Even though I did not respect the war, I can respect a man who so bravely did what he was commanded to do in the putative service of the country.



To: Dale Baker who wrote (47719)2/2/2008 7:29:11 PM
From: Sam  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 541390
 
Kyros, Steve and Dale,
Thanks for your reply. I didn't know the story about McCain's "refusal" to return, or, for that matter, any other details of his military service other than the facts that he was from a military family, his father was an admiral, he served in Vietnam, and he was captured and held for over 5 years as a POW.

So I googled his imprisonment, and found a number of hits (of course!). Here is one of the accounts I found, from Col. David Hackworth, in 2000. Note, this was prior to the Iraq business.

Are McCain's handlers playing the wrong card?
By David H. Hackworth
January 25, 2000

John McCain is being hailed by the press as a "genuine war hero." But is he a war hero in the conventional sense like Audie Murphy and John Glenn?
Or is his "war hero" status the creation of a very slick publicity campaign that plays on flag, duty, honor and country?

For sure, McCain has the fruitsalad a Silver Star, a Legion of Merit for Valor, a Distinguished Flying Cross, three Bronze Stars , two Commendation medals plus two Purple Hearts and a dozen service gongs.

On a purely medal count basis, he outweighs Murphy and Glenn, who both for years repeatedly performed extraordinary deeds on the ground or in the air against an armed enemy.

McCain's valor awards are based on what happened in 1967, when during his 23d mission over Vietnam, he was shot down, seriously injured, captured and then spent 5 1/2 brutal years as a POW.

In an attempt to find out exactly what the man did to earn these many hero awards, I asked his Senate office three times to provide copies of the narratives for each medal. I'm still waiting.

I next went to the Pentagon. Within a week, I received a recap of his medals and many of the narratives that give the details of what he did.

None of the awards, less the DFC, were for heroism over the battlefield where he spent no more than 20 hours. Two Naval officers described the awards as "boilerplate" and "part of an SOP medal package given to repatriated (Vietnamera) POWs."

McCain's Silver Star narrative for the period 27 October 1967 the day after he was shot down to 8 December 1968 reads: "His captors… subjected him to extreme mental and physical cruelties in an attempt to obtain military information and false confessions for propaganda purposes. Through his resistance to those brutalities, he contributed significantly towards the eventual abandonment…" of such harsh treatment by the North Vietnamese.

Yet in McCain's own words just four days after being captured, he admits he violated the U.S. Code of Conduct by telling his captors "O.K, I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital."

A Vietnam vet detractor says, "He received the nation's third highest award, the Silver Star, for treason. He provided aid and comfort to the enemy!"

The rest of his valor awards issued automatically every year while he was a POW read much like the Silver Star. More boilerplate often repeating the exact same words. An example: "By his heroic endeavors, exceptional skill, and devotion to duty, he reflected great credit upon himself and upheld the highest traditions of the Naval Service and the United States Armed Forces."

Yet McCain's conduct while a POW negates these glowing comments. The facts are that he signed a confession and declared himself a "black criminal who performed deeds of an air pirate." This statement* and other interviews he gave to the Communist press press were used as propaganda to fan the flames of the antiwar movement.

Accounts by McCain and other writers tell of the horror he endured: relentlessly beatings, torture, broken limbs. All inflicted during savage interrogations. Yet no other POW was a witness to these accounts.

A former POW says "No man witnessed another man during interrogations… We relied on each other to tell the truth when a man was returned to his cell."

The U.S. Navy says two eyewitnesses are required for any award of heroism. But for the valor awards McCain received, there are no eyewitnesses, less himself and his captors. And they're not talking.

Our POWs in Vietnam were treated appallingly. The Viets would either break a POW or kill him. POWs provided info beyond name, rank and serial number or they didn't come back.

Based on these stalwart men's horrific experiences, the Code of Conduct has been changed. A POW says, "Now the training is to give them something… don't risk permanent damage to health, mind or body."

McCain refused an early release. An act of valor? Three former POWs told me he was ordered to turn it down by his U.S. POW commander and he "just followed orders."

McCain certainly doesn't appear to be a war hero by conventional standards, but rather a tough survivor whose handlers are overplaying the war hero card.

David H. Hackworth died in June 2005, he was a much-decorated and highly unconventional former career Army officer who became a combat legend in Vietnam. Col. Hackworth received 78 combat awards — including a Distinguished Service Cross, a Silver Star, a Bronze Star and eight Purple Hearts — during his 25-year military career which spanned the Korean and Vietnam wars..

vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com

*Here is the link for the document Hackworth referred to in the text:
This document is a transcript of a Hanoi correspondent broadcast to Cuba quoting newly captured POW John McCain detailing U.S. military information about U.S. bombing operations over North Vietnam. The broadcast was transmitted in English on November 09, 1967 and intercepted by U.S. intelligence.
vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com



To: Dale Baker who wrote (47719)2/2/2008 7:31:10 PM
From: ChinuSFO  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 541390
 
And I suppose you would have the same respect for General Powell particularly after the dignified way he got out of the way of the neo-cons.